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House of Assembly - Fifty-Fifth Parliament, First Session (55-1)
2025-10-29 Daily Xml
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Auditor-General's Report

Auditor-General's Report

In committee.

(Continued from 28 October 2025.)

The CHAIR: I declare the examination of the report of the Auditor-General 2024-25 open. I remind members that the committee is in normal session. Any questions have to be asked by members on their feet and all questions must be directly referenced to the Auditor-General's Report 2024-25 and agency statements for the year ending 2024-25, as published on the Auditor-General's website. I welcome the Minister for Education and the member for Flinders for the opposition. We have 30 minutes allocated starting now.

Mr BATTY: I would like to start with police please.

The CHAIR: Okay. You call the shots so to speak. Sorry, that was a bad pun.

Mr BATTY: Turning to the audited financial statements of South Australia Police, pages 7 and 8, and particularly the employee-related expenditure in the crime and criminal justice section, my question is: was the CIB section understaffed in regional areas during the audited year? If so, did this lead to any delays in finalising SAPOL tier 2 Coroner's files?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I thank the member for Bragg for his question. I understand that is probably outside the terms of the Auditor-General's Report from what I can see. I can see the item you are referring to there but I do not think there is any available breakdown on the CIB or otherwise.

Mr BATTY: Well, I will try again on page 8, specifically referring to employee-related expenses in the crime and criminal justice section. Perhaps you can tell me what the CIB funding was, but particularly what I am trying to work out is how many overdue tier 2 Coroner's files there were in SAPOL during the audited year.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: No, I understand, but the Auditor-General's Report does not deal with that—unless you can find the place in the report, member for Bragg, where it does then I will happily either answer your question or take it on notice.

Mr BATTY: I will move on to some other questions if the minister does not want to answer these questions about overdue tier 2 Coroner's files.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Point of order.

The CHAIR: Member for Bragg, you will resume your seat while I take a point of order. I think I can guess where the point of order is going to go.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Insinuating that I was not willing to answer the question, which is not what I said. The member for Bragg already has, I have seen in the early days of doing his job, a proclivity to actually stretching the truth little bit, I think. He did it on radio yesterday.

Mr BATTY: Point of order.

The CHAIR: You can make your point of order but I will deal with this one first. Yours can be a contingent point of order. Minister, am I to understand that you took offence to those comments?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Yes, I did.

The CHAIR: Member for Bragg, the member has taken offence.

Mr BATTY: I have taken offence, sir.

The CHAIR: No, he is first. You will come second.

Mr BATTY: Offence at what?

The CHAIR: You implied he did not want to answer the question. Unless you can show me the direct reference in the Auditor-General's Report—

Mr BATTY: My reference is page 8 of the audited report and the employee expenditure in the crime and criminal justice section.

The CHAIR: Hold on. Page 8 of what?

Mr BATTY: Of the audited financial reports of SAPOL.

The CHAIR: There are three different reports. Which one are you referring to?

Mr BATTY: No, I am not referring to any of the Auditor-General's reports in front of you. On the website of the Auditor-General is the Independent Auditor's Report into the South Australia Police. It is the agency report, sir—page 8 of the associated agency report—which I would ask both you and the minister to turn up and make a ruling on.

The CHAIR: You wish to take it on notice, though?

Mr BATTY: If the minister has come without the audited report of SAPOL, that is really—

The CHAIR: Careful where you go.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Point of order.

The CHAIR: Can you guys just sit down, please? Calm down and stop taking pot shots at each other.

Members interjecting:

The CHAIR: Member for Flinders! The next person who speaks out of turn will not get a chance to ask or answer questions. Given the circumstances, the minister will take that question on notice. We will proceed.

Mr BATTY: In the same line item, were there any overdue SAPOL tier 2 Coroner's files in the audited year? Can you please advise the number of days each file has been overdue and how many of them are in metropolitan versus regional areas?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: As we have agreed on the first one, because it appears that it is not dealt with in the audited statements that we are going through here we will have to take that on notice. But, of course, if the member for Bragg has any questions that actually pertain to this specifically here in the remaining 25 or 26 minutes that we have I am very willing to answer them.

Mr BATTY: Thank you, minister, for your cooperation. I turn to the Auditor-General's Report, Part C on page 289, where we have a number of sworn police officers and cadets at 4,947. Can the minister advise what the establishment number of sworn officers was as at 30 June?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I am advised it was 4,674.

Mr BATTY: How many of those positions were actually filled as at the end of the audited year?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I can say that as of today we are 115 below the establishment figure I gave. I can give some rolling data as well: in November 2024, 180 was the figure; in October 2024, it was 193; in September 2024, it was 184; and it is now 115. I think from memory the opposition leader used the figure of 200 this week, but that is not right.

Mr BATTY: I would ask the minister to try to confine his comments to the Auditor-General's Report and the year that was examined, which ended at 30 June 2025, so I am not sure what comments the—

The CHAIR: Member for Bragg!

Mr BATTY: —opposition leader made last week.

Mr Telfer: The end of June is the reporting period.

Mr BATTY: Yes, 30 June. So you do not have that figure, but we will take the figure of 115 below at the moment.

Members interjecting:

The CHAIR: Member for Bragg, you can take your seat. Member for Flinders—

Members interjecting:

The CHAIR: Minister! Have you boys finished? Member for Flinders, I politely ask you that when it is your turn to speak—

Mr Telfer interjecting:

The CHAIR: No, you interrupted when you did not need to. Member for Bragg, the floor is yours. Can you ask your colleague to keep his comments to himself?

Mr BATTY: I will leave that to you, Chair. The Auditor-General's Report finishes at 30 June 2025, which is the same date, of course, that was the target for returning to establishment numbers. The commissioner said on ABC radio on 2 October 2024 that SAPOL was 'planning to get back to establishment at or as close as possible by 30 June next year,' being the period that is the end of this report. For what reasons did SAPOL fail to meet this 30 June target for returning to establishment?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I do not accept your characterisation, of course, nor the opposition leader saying that we are 200 below—which is disappointing on a number of levels, but particularly as a former police minister you would think he would get that stuff right.

Mr Batty interjecting:

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: That is right—plus the 326 that we have committed to as well. You might recall the answer I gave to a question in question time today about applications. I am happy to go through that again today. You do not want to hear that, because it reflects very poorly on your time.

Mr Batty: It is not in the Auditor-General's Report.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: But do you remember the three questions you started with, because they were not in the report.

Mr Batty: Yes, they were.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Wow—amazing. All I can say is: applications soaring; sworn officer numbers going up; and vacancies dropping. There are 115 today, down from 193 in October.

Mr BATTY: I will repeat my question: for what reasons did SAPOL not reach a 30 June target for reaching establishment numbers?

Mr Telfer interjecting:

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I cannot hear because I have the member for Flinders as well, so—

Mr BATTY: I repeat my previous question. I am after the reasons why SAPOL did not meet the 30 June target for a returning to establishment?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I thank the member for Bragg for his question. Obviously, recruiting remains challenging, and we know that, but we are doing a much better job of it than the last government did. There is no doubt about that; the statistics speak for themselves there.

We have dropped from vacancies of 193 in October of last year to just 115 now, and that trajectory is very, very promising. Of course, add to that the big increase in applications to join SAPOL—over 3,000 most recently—I am not sure we have ever topped that before. So, yes, it is still a very difficult environment to do that, but I think the things that this government has committed to doing that we are doing are clearly making a difference because we are seeing applications up, vacancies down and the number of officers sworn in also on the increase dramatically since the last government as well.

Mr BATTY: Is there a new target date for returning to establishment?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Of course, from my point of view, member for Bragg, as soon as we can.

Mr BATTY: How many sworn police officers joined the force during the audited year?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I thank the member for his question. Here is the information on applications and graduates across the last few years: in 2021-22, 1,825 applications and 111 graduates; in 2022-23, 2,250 applications and 167 graduates; in 2023-24, 2,394 applications and 242 graduates; and in 2024-25, 3,050 applications—the figure I used before—and 264 graduates.

Mr BATTY: How many sworn police officers separated from the force during the audited year?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Thank you, member for Bragg. I will take it on notice so I can get you the exact data in terms of separations from the force across the reporting period, but I can also go back a few years as I am sure some comparative data would be useful as well. I am reassured by those next to me that that figure, which includes resigned and retired for the 2024-25 reporting period, is thankfully lower than it was for the 2023-24 reporting period, but I will take the specific question on notice and bring you back data for this period and the periods before it as well.

Mr BATTY: I note you have the data for how many have joined the force in front of you. You do not have the data for how many separated from the force, or you cannot readily get that just in the most recent audited year?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I just took that question on notice.

Mr BATTY: Have you taken it on notice because you do not want to tell me, or because you do not have the answer and you cannot tell me?

The CHAIR: The minister has answered your question, saying he has taken it on notice. The additional commentary was not warranted, member for Bragg. Continue.

Mr BATTY: I guess what I am trying to get to is what the net gain of police officers has been. Can you tell me what the net gain of police officers was during the audited year? So that would be the figure of 264 that you told me before, minus the figure you will not tell me.

The CHAIR: I think what he is trying to say is he is unable to tell you.

Mr Batty interjecting:

The CHAIR: I know; I went to a northern school, we are a bit different.

The Hon. B.I. Boyer interjecting:

Mr BATTY: I would ask that the minister, who is interjecting, withdraw the statement that I have been misleading people on the radio.

The CHAIR: Take your seat; you know the process. He has not said you have misled parliament.

Mr BATTY: Sir, I am suggesting he has. I am saying he is interjecting and saying that I have misled people on the radio and I take offence at that and ask that he withdraw it and apologise to me.

The CHAIR: So you are saying he is interjecting?

Mr BATTY: With offensive comments, sir.

Mr Telfer interjecting:

The CHAIR: I am taking advice, member for Flinders, and when you become the Clerk I will take your advice. Apparently, previous Speakers have ruled that a comment in the community is not the same as misleading the parliament and—let me finish; I know what you are about to say—anything that flows from that is also therefore not warranted. Can you go to the next question, please? And I would ask that both the member for Bragg and the minister stop throwing barbs at each other, please, and the member for Flinders not say anything.

Mr BATTY: During the audited year of the sworn police officers who separated from the force, what was the split between resignations versus retirements?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Thank you, member for Bragg, for the question. I can tell you that the split is more in favour of resigned over retired, but probably only marginally. I will get you the exact figure.

Mr BATTY: Is the minister concerned about a recent PASA report that shows one in two police officers are considering leaving the force in the next three years?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I thank the member for Bragg for the question. Of course, as is the case with all my portfolios, I would be concerned about people who want to leave the job. It is one of the reasons we are doing all the things that we are in policing to try to make the job more attractive. That includes, of course, the enterprise bargaining agreement that we struck with SAPOL. That has a four in front of it, which is a very considerable increase from the twos that the last government delivered to SAPOL. They were, of course, very low figures, and we have improved on that. Then there was another budget most recently that had a record funding commitment to police and law enforcement in South Australia and more commitments with PSOs. We know that is important as well.

In terms of the question that the member for Bragg asked about PASA's report about people who are saying they are going to leave the force, the short answer is yes. Of course, I am always concerned about that in policing—I am the same with teachers as well—but I think the things that we have committed to and put in place that are already rolling out show that there are things that we are doing that are really working. I think those application numbers I mentioned before, which are now over 3,000, point to us doing something right in terms of trying to make policing a more attractive career.

I understand the workload pressures that police are under. I joined the officer in charge of Eastern District, Scott Denny, and some of his team on Friday night for a bit of a walk down Hindley Street and had a chance to talk to them beforehand about the things they have seen change in policing and what they are seeing. I have no reason to think otherwise when they tell me the job is tough and they are under a lot of pressure. That is why the government is doing the things that the government should do. No, of course I do not want people to be leaving the force. I want them to stay, and I want us to find more recruits as well.

Mr BATTY: Minister, do you think that the shortfall in police officers is having an impact on community safety?

The Hon. B.I. Boyer interjecting:

The CHAIR: I could not hear, either. Can you repeat, please?

Mr BATTY: Is the shortfall in police officers that the minister identified a moment ago—115 below establishment—having an impact on community safety?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: We have set a target to get to 5,000. Of course, we want more police officers and we think more police officers are good for community safety. There is no doubt about that. I do not want there to be any vacancies. I want us to reach the 326. I have said that time and time again. That is why we are putting a record spend from the budget into this.

Mr BATTY: How many international recruits commenced with SAPOL in the audited year?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: The figure is 86. I understand that includes interstate transfers though as well. If you would like a breakdown, I am sure I can ask the team to provide that.

Mr BATTY: What incentives were offered to those police officers to move to South Australia from other jurisdictions?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: The pay to start with, of course, the enterprise bargaining agreement that we struck; the 4 per cents that we have given here compared to the 2 per cents they got under the last government I would say was probably one of the big ones. I understand the commitment that the opposition has made around police recruitment. I do not seek to criticise that but I would point out that one of the best things we can do in terms of an ongoing incentive for people who want to join the force or stay in the force, potentially move from interstate, potentially move from overseas, to come to serve in the South Australian police force here in South Australia is to have a really strong enterprise bargaining agreement that delivers real wage growth. We have done that with 4 per cents locked in. I am happy to get a bit of advice from those next to me about any other incentives we can speak to.

Just quickly—I am sure you have other questions—the existing things the agency already does in terms of relocation expenses included up to $10,000 to move from some places as well, so there are things that we are already doing to encourage people to move from overseas and interstate. Again, I would just say that the best thing I think we can do here is come to an agreement with SAPOL, which we have done already, on a strong enterprise bargaining agreement that delivers real wage increases to our forces. We have certainly done that with those 4 per cents, which are basically double what the last government managed to deliver.

Mr TELFER: I will do a few minutes of education, if possible. I refer the minister to the Auditor-General's Report, Part C, on page 51. Is the department on track to release its asset management action plan by February 2026?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: Yes.

Mr TELFER: When does the minister expect that asset management action plan to be completed and released?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I am told before June at this stage in 2026 is the aim of the department, but depending on what happens at the election and a range of other things, once I have a more specific date I am very happy to provide that publicly around when that will be available.

Mr TELFER: But you just said that you expect it before February 2026, in the answer before, to my question.

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: I said in 2026 in my first answer, before June.

Mr TELFER: The question I asked, the first one, was, 'Do you expect it to be released by February 2026?' and you said, 'Yes'. Can I just get some clarity?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: My answer is the same. The advice from the department is, before June 2026.

Mr TELFER: The Auditor-General's Report found the department lacks a formal documented framework governing how asset data, whether that is age, risk or placement schedules, etc., is to be used in capital decision-making. His recommendation was made to update the existing asset management framework. I understand the department advised it would be able to develop an action plan to address this matter by February 2026 but now that is June 2026? That is pushed out. So it is beyond what has already been promised. It has been kicked out.

The Hon. B.I. Boyer interjecting:

Mr TELFER: Okay, sure. The South Australian Schools Investment Fund balances, minister, on pages 58 to 60: what is the government's position on what constitutes a high SASIF balance? Are you working with the department to define specific thresholds?

The Hon. B.I. BOYER: We are working on that, yes, because there is obviously a lot of money sitting in SASIF. There is a reason, however—and I am happy to go into it in a bit of detail around why that number is rising. Part of the issue is around the fact that post the pandemic, we have seen an increase in the cost of builds, essentially I would be guessing for government and certainly for education, of about 40 per cent.

What that means for schools is that those who have been doing the right thing and tirelessly working to save up some money in their SASIF account in the hope that they will get a co-contribution perhaps from the government to finish a project that they want to do, it has got a lot harder because we are essentially getting 40 per cent less for our money.

So, yes, we are working with the department around the recommendations from the Auditor-General. We know that is really important. It is a lot of money that is sitting in SASIF at a time when we have a lot of pressure on our infrastructure. You would know that as the member for Flinders, and I am keen to utilise that as best we can, and we will work to have those thresholds and work with the principals' associations of course on deciding what they are. But I do give schools some slack, because before COVID it was 40 per cent less than it is now. So, if the school has saved up $500,000, unfortunately now it is not getting them what it would have three or four years ago, which makes it difficult. The short answer is, yes, we are working on that and we will have a plan as per the recommendation of the Auditor-General.

The CHAIR: Sadly, the time allocated for this has expired. Next please. I think it is the Minister for Human Services. I welcome the Minister for Human Services and I call on questions from the member for Chaffey.

Mr WHETSTONE: I would like to go to Part C, page 225, reference point 8. Does DHS currently have any policies or procedures for the disability service charging process?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Yes.

Mr WHETSTONE: Is DHS aiming to have these policies in place? Are they in place now or are they to be in place?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: There are policies and procedures in place and they are under constant review.

Mr WHETSTONE: The Auditor-General said that system improvements need to develop policies and procedures for the billing process, so why has it taken so long for DHS to start implementing those policies, given that the service started in October 2023?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Because of the complex nature of the billing process and for the first time having those individual billing procedures put in place per client.

Mr WHETSTONE: We are two years on from that and again the Auditor-General has questioned that the system does need improvements for the billing process. He also found roughly 100 expired client agreements and $4.9 million in unpaid disability service debts. Why are so many overdue?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The Auditor-General actually noted improvements in controls and billing practices and really significant reductions in debtors. In the first full year of the NDIS it led to a high number of service agreements expiring and needing renewal all at once. That was what the large amount was. We have now had plan reviews so that they are going to be renewed at a staggered process throughout the year so that we do not get that occurring again.

Mr WHETSTONE: Of the 100 expired client service agreements in the DHS charging system, how many have now been renewed and how many are still unresolved?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: It is a rolling number but there are around 33 that are currently still being renewed and worked on. Under the new system we would expect, as it is fully implemented, that there would be no more than a couple of dozen at a time, when you work that out over 12 months.

Mr WHETSTONE: What is the value of those 33?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: All plans are different values. I cannot give you the value of those 33.

Mr WHETSTONE: Can you put it on notice?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: I can tell you that the average plan is somewhere around 200,000 to 300,000, but, as you would be well aware, some plans are well north of that. Today it will be different than tomorrow and different than the day after, and it is different than last week. So this is a difficult question to give you a precise answer to, and I am not sure of what impact that would have, at all, in terms of the function and operations of the Department of Human Services.

Mr WHETSTONE: So you cannot tell me what the total value is of the services that were to be billed and that were part of those expired agreements. But has all of the revenue been recovered, or is there a portion that is now unrecoverable?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Once a value is in the plan and agreed on, we can have that payment backdated. So that is not how it happens.

Mr WHETSTONE: If there is a revenue loss, has the loss of revenue had any impact on DHS's budget forecast?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: We do not have a loss of revenue related to delayed service agreements.

Mr WHETSTONE: How will DHS ensure agreements are updated in a timely manner in the future?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Through the reviewed processes.

Mr WHETSTONE: What is the total outstanding disability debt owed to DHS?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: As of what date?

Mr WHETSTONE: The Auditor-General said in April 2025 that 70 per cent of debts were at least 90 days overdue. How much of that has now been recovered, written off or is outstanding?

The CHAIR: The minister can only report up to 30 June 2025.

The Hon. N.F. COOK: As of last month, any debt has come down by $1 million, and that continues to be worked on. As of 30 September, the disability debt over 90 days is $3.9 million, and we are still working to recover that.

Mr WHETSTONE: What about the $2.9 million at 180 days?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: We are still working to recover that.

Mr WHETSTONE: Minister, how many debtor accounts make up the $2.9 million overdue by more than 180 days?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The total amounts per debtor and for each account could range in a huge variance, but we are happy to take that one on notice.

Mr WHETSTONE: Thank you. Is there a concentrated portion in the top overdue accounts that are past 180 days?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Sorry, a concentrated portion of what?

Mr WHETSTONE: Is there a concentrated proportion of those debtors that are 180 days or more?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: My understanding and my advice is that if we provide you the answer to that question on notice that information would be revealed.

Mr WHETSTONE: Minister, how does DHS propose to improve the debt recovery process, and is there a target percentage that DHS is aiming to meet?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: There has been a rolling delivery on procedure and policy changes and advice taken from the Auditor-General and from our own internal auditing processes. We know that the planning to do this process was put in place previous to 2023, and as reviews and audits have come in place there have been changes to the process to ensure that it is working in a more responsive way.

With the establishment of the new systems and with the robust billing team that we have in place and the checks that they are doing and the follow-up they are doing, we know that it was a really huge change from in-kind to cash for both the department and for clients. We acknowledge the challenges that have been in place, but through these procedures and the processes and the audits we are confident that we are capturing everything we have to capture and we will continue to do so.

Mr WHETSTONE: Have any of the outstanding debts been escalated to legal recovery?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: No.

Mr WHETSTONE: I note the DHS is working to include a 15 per cent afternoon penalty rate in the award. How long has DHS maintained this arrangement and what is the cost to your department or to the taxpayer?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: This was raised first by the Auditor in 2021-22. The 15 per cent afternoon penalty rates are absolutely historical and common practice in the sector. It is difficult to calculate, but there would be an absolute positive benefit in terms of staff attraction and retention because they are getting paid well and they know that they are respected for the work that they do.

Mr WHETSTONE: What is the status of negotiations to add the 15 per cent to the award?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: We are at an in-principle position and we are awaiting the sign-off on all of the agreements that we are making with the sector.

Mr WHETSTONE: On to bank accounts, when was the last full review of bank signatories and system access completed?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The reviews are undertaken annually. The issue that was raised by the Auditor-General was not in fact about the reviews being done or not being done, it was about the documentation around that process.

Mr WHETSTONE: Are you able to give me any more advice on what that documentation is?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The focus on banking this year is appreciated and, as I understand it, it is probably due to the transition from the Commonwealth Bank to the ANZ Bank. Obviously, we welcome the findings that will help strengthen our controls. But as I understand it, that oversight is in place and has been, but we have strengthened the check on those documentation processes. So I would expect that will be now much stronger.

Mr WHETSTONE: So you are saying that it will be a better process. Does DHF have a standard that the bank signatory reviews are currently held to?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Can you repeat the question?

Mr WHETSTONE: Does DHS have a standard that the bank signatory reviews are currently held to? Do you have a standard or a set formula of what those signatories and the system access currently is, or what they are held to? What standard are they held to?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Yes, there is a whole process of authority and who has delegated authority and who has ultimate authority for various processes within banking and within the signing off of various payments, and that is adhered to. All departments would have the same type of process and that process is being followed. Again, as I say, I understand there was not any question that the process is happening, it is just how the documentation of that process was occurring. We have reviewed that and we expect that will be more fulsome.

Mr WHETSTONE: The Auditor has said that reviews of bank signatories and the banking system user access required better documentation. What documentation will DHS prepare moving forward to ensure that reviews do meet the required standard?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: As I said, there is a process for authorisation and there is a process for checking of payments and who is able to pay and who is able to access certain parts of the accounting system, and that is delegated within people's authorities. Then there is a mechanism now to ensure that we are checking that that is happening when it is supposed to happen and in the way that it is supposed to happen. That is pretty down in the weeds operational, but there is certainly a process and they are certainly being checked. I am happy to arrange a conversation if you want to have one afterwards if you are deeply interested in this particular thing.

Mr WHETSTONE: In the financial report, despite record income, DHS finished 2024-25 with a $37 million deficit and a total loss of $19 million. How did DHS overspend by so much?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: We did not. It is misleading because the budgeted deficit associated with non-cash transaction is what we have. There was a $15 million asset transfer in that of Jonal Drive to the department of corrections, which will do great goodness in our community, and that appears as an accounting deficit. That is all part of that as well.

Mr WHETSTONE: So you are saying that there was no overspend?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: No, your question was not, 'Was there an overspend?'

Mr WHETSTONE: 'How did DHS overspend by so much?' was the question.

The Hon. N.F. COOK: And you prefaced that with a figure.

Mr WHETSTONE: Yes, a $37 million deficit and a total loss of $19 million. How did DHS overspend by so much? And how are you going to address this in future budgets?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: There was not an overspend of so much.

Mr WHETSTONE: DHS's appropriation jumped $222 million or 23 per cent in a single year, mostly to replace the lost commonwealth funding. Is there a structural pressure within DHS and, if so, how sustainable is this level of state funding going forward?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The Auditor-General himself points out the pressures, and there are pressures under all departments, households and businesses to deliver services. That is explained by the costs to deliver services, such as disability, and also the MoGs that have occurred through the Office for Ageing Well and Homelessness, but the appropriation amount is what is deemed satisfactory to deliver the services that we are delivering.

Mr WHETSTONE: Employee expenses rose 13 per cent to $37 million, with FTE numbers up to 2,878. Why has DHS's staffing bill grown?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Because we have taken on Homelessness and the Office for Ageing Well, which combined has an increased number of staff, such as is stated in the report, which is somewhere around 50 something. It is in the report. It is a published amount.

Mr WHETSTONE: I am sure. Workers compensation costs have also spiked to $16 million. What is driving the increase in injury liabilities?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: That is driven by an actuarial assessment of outstanding liabilities, noting there was an equivalent $21 million reduction in 2023-24 which I do not believe I was asked a question about, but there you go. It is one way one year and one way the next.

Mr WHETSTONE: The NDIS contribution rose by $73 million, with future increases of around 4 per cent annually to 2028. What measures are being put in place to contain the costs?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: It is a fixed payment according to the bilateral agreement with the federal government, with the indexation as documented. The reason it did jump so much was around the change from in-kind to full service delivery.

Mr WHETSTONE: I go to the significant events and transactions for the homelessness program. Following the transfer of the homelessness program from the Housing Trust, DHS spent $59 million on new grants. What measurable outcomes have been achieved since that transfer?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: These are not new grants; previously they would have been found in the interrogation of the South Australian Housing Authority or the Housing Trust. These are the payments for the homelessness services, which include the alliances and the specialist homelessness services. They are not new.

Our team constantly looks at the outcomes and the delivery of services and the KPIs that are happening by the homelessness services through their regular meetings. We also have put an outcomes framework in place, which is new, which will again help us make sure we are delivering services at the best possible level we can.

Also, there is a review of homelessness services. We have two plus two plus two in our agreements for our alliance service provision. We are in the third lot of two years now. They are due to end in the middle of 2027. We are not waiting. We have started a review. The review team is a partnership between BetterStart and Jindawayni—I apologise for a mispronunciation if that is what I have done. They are already on the road reviewing the services, and we expect to have that report ready to talk about in the first half of next year.

Mr WHETSTONE: Obviously, I have asked you about these measurable outcomes within the department. As a proactive minister yourself, are there any initiatives to make the service better that you can share with us, other than adhering to KPIs or looking at achieving better outcomes?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: I read the reports, I visit the places, I talk with the people, I listen to stakeholders, I listen to lived experience, I monitor the data, I look at the Zero projects that are growing in number around the state, and I work with the partners to make sure that they are receiving adequate support to provide the services. There is a whole range of ever-present opportunities for us to review and support service delivery.

Mr WHETSTONE: For domestic violence funding, there is a $17 million increase in domestic and family violence service grants. How is DHS ensuring this additional funding is delivering improved outcomes?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: This is not for me. This is Minister Hildyard's.

Mr WHETSTONE: So you do not have any involvement with family service grants?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: No. What page are you looking at, sorry?

Mr WHETSTONE: Page 227.

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Under ministerial changes, I take responsibility for generic homelessness services, including young people; Minister Hildyard takes responsibility for the domestic and family violence alliance.

Mr WHETSTONE: Intra-government land transfers: DHS transferred $15 million worth of property to Correctional Services. How was this land being utilised by DHS and how will it be utilised by Corrections?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: I am very happy that they swiped that from us. They are going to use it, as I understand, for housing, which would have to be a question for the Minister for Correctional Services. Previous to that, it was the old Cavan site for young people and children in custody, which has been fully closed and non-operational for a number of years now.

Mr WHETSTONE: Is that a bare site or does it still have all the buildings and infrastructure on it, just as a side question?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: When we handed it over, it had buildings in place.

Mr WHETSTONE: The Energy Bill Relief Fund provided $127 million more to households while the state Cost of Living Concession payments fell $37 million from the previous year. Is DHS measuring the effects of these changes, particularly on low-income households?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: The EBRF was new, hence it went up. We provided a one-off additional payment, hence the value of the normal regular concessions went down, but of course it did not halve because we increased the amount per household. How do we measure it? People are very satisfied and provide excellent feedback about the concessions they get. We are very happy to have done that. I am sure you have many hundreds or even thousands in your electorate who are getting that. It is a really great program.

Mr WHETSTONE: Are you able to give me an example of what some of those outcomes are, please?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: People are able to use concession payments for whatever they need to. Some of them buy an item of furniture or whitegoods or whatever for their home that they could not previously afford. Some people use it as a general cost-of-living payment. Some people use it to catch up on bills. That is a benefit. It relaxes people and takes people to a more calm place when they have extra money in their pocket. It is money they did not have.

Mr WHETSTONE: There is $47 million remaining in the Home for the Incurables Trust, with no decision on its use. When will the government act to direct these funds and how will they be utilised?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: I am glad you asked. We managed to secure a $42 million sale, which we held in the trust while we worked with the community. The grants were announced only in the last month. They are still open: either a $20,000 one-off grant for an activity to promote access and improvement of quality of life for people with disability, or it can be over two years for $100,000. Those grants are out. The decision has been made a long time ago.

Mr WHETSTONE: Are those grants still open?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Yes.

Mr WHETSTONE: How long are they open for?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: They close during November. I will happily provide you with the exact information as soon as I get it.

Mr WHETSTONE: I refer to the concession payments on page 230. There is $49 million in liabilities, mainly comprising approved concessions that had not been paid as of 30 June 2025. How many of these concessions remain unpaid?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: To clarify, this is not about money out the door for us in the first stages. The actual amounts have been paid, but this is about the energy companies claiming money back from us. In that program, the energy providers pay and they claim the money back from us, but they are slow. We stand ready to pay the bills. It is 14 November for the grants.

Mr WHETSTONE: So the power companies pay you a retrospective payment; is that how you said it works?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: No, the power companies knock it off people's bills. If you, Tim Whetstone, have a bill—I do not think you would be eligible, by the way—of a hundred bucks, and that is what the amount was, they would knock the 100 bucks off, but then they have to claim the 100 from us and they have not done so.

Mr WHETSTONE: How many households waited more than 30 days for their payment and, if they did, how would you improve that processing time?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: Sorry, which payment are you talking about?

Mr WHETSTONE: I am talking about the concession payables. We have just talked about the concession payments. How many households waited more than 30 days for these concession payments?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: We do not pay out individuals. It is a quantity of repayments to the energy providers. They knock the money off the account—it is a quarterly account or whatever—and then they bill us for the money, but they have not. It is a bunch of them; we do not do it per household.

Mr WHETSTONE: Is that a retrospective payment to the department?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: No. The way a bill works is that someone sends the bill and a person pays the bill. The energy provider sends the bill and DHS pays the bill, so it is not a retrospective thing; they just have not billed us.

Mr WHETSTONE: How many households have waited more than 30 days to be paid?

The Hon. N.F. COOK: If they waited more than 30 days that meant that the energy provider was 30 days late with their bill.

Mr WHETSTONE: I have one final question regarding supplies and services. Total supplies to services are over $110 million. How much was spent on consultants and temporary staff?

The CHAIR: This is the last question and answer.

The Hon. N.F. COOK: I am very happy to provide it on notice. We provided it at estimates to the end of 30 June. I am happy to provide you a quarter, to the end of September or thereabouts. If it is going to be any different I will discuss it with you, but we can provide you with that. The last financial year's consultancy bills have been provided. DHS is very small because they are smart, they are mighty and they do most of the things themselves. Thank you for your questions.

The CHAIR: The time allocated has expired. I thank the minister and I also thank the member for Chaffey. I welcome the Minister for Consumer and Business Services, and a range of other things, and I call on either the leader or the member for Heysen to start the questions.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: We will kick off on page 8, Agency audits, Attorney-General's Department, Part C of the annual report. I draw the minister's attention to the section on financial statistics. Is the minister able to provide a breakdown on how many FTE work within Consumer and Business Services?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Sorry, are you asking small business questions or CBS? I just want my agency to sit here.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: We will probably traverse a few paths, so whatever is easier to do.

The CHAIR: Minister, are you trying to attract your departmental staff or ministerial staff, which one?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Sorry, I had my small business people here, so would you like me to bring some Consumer and Business Services people in to answer these questions?

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: DSD would be better and perhaps a more appropriate place to start.

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Yes, DSD, that would be great.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: In the interests of expediting the process, I refer to Part C: Agency Audit Reports, the Department of State Development, 'Highlights of the financial report', page 354. As the Office for Small and Family Business sits within the Department of State Development, if I can refer you, minister, to Part C of the annual report at page 356 and draw your attention to the grants and subsidies section. Is the minister able to provide a complete list of the grants that are administered by the Office of Small and Family Business?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: For the 2024-25 financial year the grants were in relation to the Whyalla support package. The Business Growth Fund round 2 were our energy efficiency grants which got quite a significant update. The leader would be aware that we are now in round 3 of that, which is fantastic. We have the Small Business Strategy grants, Women in Business, in terms of programs, the Centre for Business Growth as well at University of South Australia, and financial counselling grants. That was 2024-25 for what grants were through that agency. There are obviously more in the current financial year.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Other than the $30.6 million provided to small businesses by the Business Growth Fund energy efficiency grants round 2, can the minister provide a breakdown of the number of applications, the number of successful applicants and also the average value of those grants please?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: These are figures as at 27 October, because obviously some applicants are still getting their equipment installed and reimbursed. Those figures I can provide. We had 1,375 applications submitted. That was a total value of $111.4 million for a proposed grant value of $31.6 million. All of those grant applications have been reviewed. We approved 1,032 applications, so a total grant value of $23.63 million has been approved, which is obviously more than the $20 million initial envelope we announced due to the popularity of that particular grant program.

The really important thing about this grant program is the energy bill savings that small businesses will have year on year. For that particular grant round, we have energy bill savings estimated at $24.24 million per annum. So $24 million will be saved by businesses each and every year due to that grant program, which is fantastic, and it is why we have announced the third round, which I think is open until Friday from recollection.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Under audits for DSD under 'Further commentary on operations' regarding the Whyalla Steelworks support package on page 357, the report states that 122 applications for the grant program have been received and that 67 payments have been made. Is the minister able to advise, of the 55 applications not approved, how many of these are still under consideration and how many of these have been denied?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I am advised that they have all been processed. As it indicates there, 113 were submitted and 15 have been declined. Was there a balance of your question that I have forgotten?

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: No. How many have been denied?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Fifteen.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Why were they denied or declined?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: There is a variety of reasons, I am advised, for those that were declined. Most commonly, it was through the validation process with the administrator. The invoices that creditors had put in for under that grant program needed to be validated by the administrator, and often that was the point where they fell over in terms of being approved.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Moving on, the report states 'additional business and personal support' of $761,000. Can you explain or provide detail on what that support is and who that has been provided to?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I think it was a combination, potentially, of some of the financial counselling support, free accredited training provided for workers and contractors from the steelworks impacted by loss of work, and an apprenticeship and guarantee scheme. It was a combination of those. There was a financial advisory service provided through Hood Sweeney through our small business program, and there were capability statement development workshops. I think it was the RDA, potentially, that ran that one for us.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: I will move on to AGD, if it is easier for your logistics. I refer the minister to the Attorney-General's Department, page 8 of Part C of the annual report. Can I draw the minister's attention to the financial statistics section. Is the minister able to provide a breakdown on how many FTE work within CBS?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Of that total in AGD, there are 222 FTEs in Consumer and Business Services.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Furthermore, if possible, can the minister advise how many of those staff are dedicated to tobacco licensing and enforcement?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: There is in fact a team of 21 actual FTEs in the tobacco and vaping team. That is obviously off the back of the additional $16 million investment. That team has been working incredibly hard in the work they have been doing since July last year. I just want to acknowledge the work that team has been doing.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Is the minister saying that is a sufficient number of FTE, or is that insufficient staff to conduct the enforcement?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: They have been working incredibly hard in that enforcement. In terms of some of the closure orders I think we are well over 120 in total in terms of closure orders. There are prosecutions; one has been successful. There are others in court. They obviously go through the process of the interim or short-term closures and then potentially long-term closures. That needs to go through the Magistrates Court. Two have been successful within the Magistrates Court and I think there are four before the courts at the moment.

We are at almost $50 million of product taken off the streets now. We have been working really closely with our interstate colleagues, with SAPOL. The Eclipse team in SAPOL has obviously made a significant contribution as well. We have had federal agencies—the Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner has visited us to see the work that we have been doing within CBS and the assistant minister Julian Hill was here talking to us about the work that we have been doing.

What we are seeing around the country is the view on what SA is doing is as a nation leader. We have been ranked as a nation leader, independently. The team has done an incredible amount of work in terms of compliance and it is putting us in good stead on the national stage. Other jurisdictions are now copying amendments we have made to our legislation and copying our models for compliance. The close relationship between SAPOL and CBS I think has put us in very good stead for some of those closures and compliance and prosecutions.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Can the minister advise how many FTEs are dedicated to the task force established within CBS?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: The 21 that I advised.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: I refer to Agency audits, Attorney-General's Department, 'Highlights of the financial report—controlled items', under income on page 10. Does CBS receive any of the funds of penalties from the illegal tobacco?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: That goes into the Consolidated Account as with other fines imposed by CBS in other areas, building and other compliance areas.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: In November 2024, the government released new penalties tackling illicit tobacco and vapes and included high fines for advertising tobacco products, selling without a licence, sales to a minor, sales of illicit tobacco, possession for the purpose of sale, new offences for the sale or possession for the purpose of sale of e-cigarettes and other prohibited products. Is the minister able to provide a breakdown of fines and penalties received in each of those categories?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: From recollection in terms of fines, I have a figure of about $400,000 in my mind. That is not the court-imposed fine for the successful prosecution. We will be able to take that on notice and come back to you on it.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Of the growth in income from 2024-25, how much is attributable to increases in fines and penalties for illegal tobacco and illegal vapes?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Again, we will take that on notice and come back to you.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: Part C: Agency Audit Reports, Auditor-General's Department, 'Highlights of the financial report—controlled items', expenses, page 10, how much did CBS spend last year tackling illegal tobacco and vapes?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: The budget allocation over the four years was $16 million from the budget from last year. For the 2024-25 financial year the actual spend was $2.936 million.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: How many illegal vapes and cigarettes have been seized?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: In total, we have seized over 35 million cigarettes, 12 tonnes of loose tobacco, 120,000 vape products, as well as other products prohibited under the act since 1 July 2024. As I said, I think we are at $49 million worth of illicit tobacco seized by SAPOL and CBS since CBS took over on 1 July 2024. The success rate on that obviously is a national problem. It is a significant problem. The federal government is acknowledging that. There is a new disruption group that has been formed that has state regulators, groups like AUSTRAC and other federal regulators all involved. Border Force is obviously significantly involved. I think they actually chair that. We do need a national coordination but the work here on compliance has been significant and successful.

The Hon. V.A. TARZIA: In the minister's view, what portion of illegal tobacco and vapes has actually been captured, seized, compared with what is actually out there, as a percentage? Do you have any figures on that?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I do not have any figures and I could not give an opinion on that.

Mr TEAGUE: Perhaps to pick up on some of the—we are still on the CBS side. I turn to the tables in the notes and because it is a rather lengthy single section that is not numbered in terms of pages, I just flag my interest in table 1.2, table 3.2 and table 4.1. Are they all conveniently locatable?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I have 1.2 in front of me.

Mr TEAGUE: We will start with 1.2 then. In table 1.2 and the first line of expenses in CBS 2024-25, a bit over halfway down, we see employee-related expenses from 2024-25 jump from $21.5 million to nearly $26.5 million. Can you indicate how many additional FTEs that represents, presuming it does?

While you are looking for that information, we have heard reference to the 21 members of the task force and we can see the overall, so if there is any context that you would like to provide more particularly for the purposes of tobacco or anything else, feel free to go broad on it.

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: In terms of the specific numbers, we do not have the end of 2023 figures here, so we will get you that comparison as to what the actual FTE number means in increases. We have invested substantially in not only the tobacco task force, which is the $16 million, but this year's budget had an allocation of some $10 million over the forwards for additional resources for CBS, particularly around compliance and enforcement. For two years, there was additional funding for building-related work through CBS because that was a particular pressure point after the HomeBuilder debacle (COVID), so we provided additional funding for that. In fact I think, from memory, from 2018 to now, there has been about a 50 per cent increase, in my recollection, in funding for CBS—that is my understanding—largely all in this term of government.

Mr TEAGUE: Perhaps then one more question. I appreciate that those matters are being taken on notice. We basically have a $5 million increase in employee-related expenses. It is fair to say that a substantial part of that relates to tobacco and a substantial part of that relates to the building side. Is it largely, materially, the result of additional FTEs as opposed to a significant uplift in the salaries of existing FTEs?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: No, those resources have been allocated from the budget for additional FTEs to assist CBS. They do an incredible job across a very broad range of areas—births, deaths and marriages. In fact, I think they get an extra two FTEs out of this year's budget. Regulatory services gets additional people, and compliance and enforcement is an extra 12 people out of that additional state budget funding. So additional people are helping CBS with significantly increasing workload and complexity. For example, in births, deaths and marriages, with the complexity of birth and death applications, we are seeing a significant rise in that work. Investigations are becoming more complex in certain areas, so it is to assist them with that.

Mr TEAGUE: If we get to it, I will flag a question in due course about the note in relation to a failure to reconcile the revenue in the births, deaths and marriages system (Promadis). I will hopefully get to it, but I will stick to these three tables. If I might jump to table 4.1 then: having asked the question about employee remuneration as opposed to additional FTEs, I think the answer is basically that the uplift in expenses for employees is accounted for by more FTEs. By reference to 4.1, of the employees that are the subject of that table, the higher income employees, how many and in what category are CBS employees in that table?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: We might take that one on notice because we do not have a breakdown in terms of those income categories for CBS. I will go back to an earlier answer: on 30 June 2024 there were 190 FTEs and on 30 June 2025 there were 222 FTEs, as we said, so an increase of 32. They are very much needed for all the work that CBS does.

Mr TEAGUE: Without holding you to it, do the 32 account for the bulk, if not all, of the $5 million?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I am advised that that is correct.

Mr TEAGUE: The next one is 3.2, I think, as I mentioned earlier. We see there the fees and charges: revenues and licence and regulatory fees for 2025 are marginally up from 2024. Is there presently available, if not on notice, a breakdown of those licence and regulatory fees?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I am advised that the figure in that table is for all of AGD, so there are other SafeWork licences or other regulatory fees and other agencies that are in that. It is not just CBS. But we will take that on notice to come back to you, probably with broad categories—what is births, deaths and marriages, what is occupational licensing. If you are happy with that, we will do that for you.

Mr TEAGUE: Thank you, I appreciate that, and that would cover the field and I appreciate that that figure is not wholly CBS. Going then to the births, deaths and marriages question that I flagged a moment ago and now perhaps at page 9 of Part C: Agency Audit Reports, the first note for Consumer and Business Services is that the births, deaths and marriages system was not reconciled to the general ledger. The report states:

We found that the revenue recorded in the births, deaths and marriages system (Promadis) had not been reconciled to the general ledger since August 2024. This increases the risk of errors not being detected.

CBS advised us that Promadis reconciliations restarted after a new finance officer was appointed and would ensure other members of the finance team can perform these reconciliations.

How long has that circumstance of it all being unreconciled persisted, and what revenue are we talking about in terms of revenue for births, deaths and marriages for the relevant period?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: I can advise that, as was identified by the Auditor-General, it was from August 2024 and the reconciliations commenced after the new finance officer started in April 2025. CBS has already addressed that issue raised by the Auditor-General, with the CBS finance officer and the senior financial accountant having already been trained in Promadis to complete those reconciliations, and there will be a third finance member also trying to complete those reconciliations.

So, in terms of having that situation rectified now, that has been done. CBS is also updating the standard operating procedure to document the process that should be followed and the CBS team is playing a much more active role in the Promadis reconciliation, resulting in fewer variances. I am not able to advise on the revenue that it reflects at this point in time.

Mr TEAGUE: Just for ordinary understanding—because it might present itself on the page or there might be more to it—was it a problem of there only being one finance officer capable of undertaking that function and that the solution to that when you lose that person is to say, 'Alright, we have found out that we need more than one who can do this, and that is what we are going to do now.' Is it as simple as that?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: It is as simple as that, yes, and that has been rectified and documented appropriately.

Mr TEAGUE: In terms of business continuity resources, generally speaking, does that trigger a general sort of look over to see where else there might be reliance upon a single qualified or capable relevant officer?

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: Yes, absolutely, and CBS and the new commissioner, Mr Humphrey, have done a significant amount of work in terms of looking at the overall structure of CBS, looking at what roles are needed and what training is needed. There has been substantial investment in the training of senior leaders within CBS as well. So, certainly, a significant amount of work has been done looking at those particular individual roles, making sure some of these issues raised by the Auditor-General are dealt with. Many of those were identified by the new team that has been in CBS for almost ten months now. So that work has been done over the last 10 months. I am very happy to hear the Auditor-General's recommendations being addressed.

Mr TEAGUE: It can be taken on notice.

The CHAIR: Okay, you have caught me in a moment of weakness.

Mr TEAGUE: It will be really quick. Turning to pages 9 and 10, what is the current value of the Residential Tenancies Fund, bearing in mind the observations of the Auditor-General in relation to the return of bonds? But the question is what is the current value?

The CHAIR: The member said he was happy for you to take it on notice, minister.

The Hon. A. MICHAELS: We will provide it on notice.

The CHAIR: The allotted time having expired, I thank the minister and her advisers, as well as the member for Heysen and the leader.

Progress reported; committee to sit again.