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Legislative Council - Fifty-Fourth Parliament, Second Session (54-2)
2020-10-13 Daily Xml
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Estimates Committees

The Hon. T.A. FRANKS (15:25): I seek leave to make a brief explanation before addressing a question to the Treasurer about the appropriations bill and the estimates process.

Leave granted.

The Hon. T.A. FRANKS: As we all know, appropriations bills, under the Westminster system, can only be originated in a lower house of the parliament. Indeed, treasurers have traditionally, by convention, therefore sat in the lower house of most Westminster parliaments; however, in practice some are radical and renegade in their approach to our parliament, and our Treasurer is one of those. Indeed, he is joined by the likes of Michael Egan, Michael Costa, Eric Roozendaal, John Lenders and, in Tasmania, Michael Aird, in this unconventional approach to budget processes.

Furthermore, while members in the lower house, including its ministers, are accountable in only that house typically, and upper house members are accountable only to that house typically, provisions are often made in standing orders to enable ministers from one house to appear before one or other of the committees. Indeed, in Tasmania upper house ministers regularly appear before the lower house to answer questions with regard to their portfolios.

This is something this council does in allowing upper house ministers to appear before our estimates process. I note that South Australia is possibly alone in the commonwealth in that this upper house does not participate in the estimates process of our parliament. Those rules are not set in stone, however: they are set in the standing orders, specifically standing orders 266 to 278. My questions to the Treasurer are:

1. Will you be seeking the leave of this place to unconventionally deliver the budget in the other place?

2. Will you and your colleagues, as ministers, be seeking the leave of this council to participate in the upcoming estimates committees process (which, I must add, is quite unconventional)?

3. Will your party support the participation of willing members of this council to take part in this year's estimates process?

The Hon. R.I. LUCAS (Treasurer) (15:28): The labels 'renegade' and 'rebel' sit very comfortably with me—and not just in relation to budget matters, I might say. I don't shy away from those labels. I wouldn't view them in a pejorative sense at all; I wear them as a badge of honour—

The Hon. K.J. Maher interjecting:

The PRESIDENT: Order!

The Hon. R.I. LUCAS: —that I am seen as a rebel, as a renegade and all the other similar words and phrases.

I and my ministers here serve at the will of this particular chamber. The answer to the first question is that yes, we will respectfully seek the permission of the upper house to perform the usual functions of the estimates committees, but should this chamber not give its permission then we won't be appearing before the House of Assembly estimates committees. That will be an issue on which we will, of course, accept the judgement of our colleagues within the Legislative Council chamber.

As the honourable member has indicated, that has occurred for a very long time, but it is a judgement call for the honourable member and her colleagues. If they don't wish to give permission they are perfectly entitled to do so, but the House of Assembly estimates committee process will be much the poorer for it.

The Hon. Mr Wade is in charge of about a third of the state's budget, the Hon. Ms Lensink is in charge of very important sections of public sector administration and, of course, I have the mere responsibility of bringing down the budget as well. But we accept, of course, the will of the Legislative Council in terms of whether or not the Hon. Ms Franks deigns to give us permission to present to the House of Assembly estimates committees.

In relation to the second part of the question, my views are well known on that particular issue. Again, I don't shy away from those particular views. I have expressed them for many, many years. I see the Legislative Council as being a separate and independent house from the House of Assembly. In my view, our processes in the Legislative Council, to the extent that we can, should be separate and independent.

It is one of the reasons that, as a member of the then opposition, I moved for our equivalent of the estimates committee process in terms of the Budget and Finance Committee. When returning to government, I happily and willingly moved again, as a member of the government, for the re-establishment of our equivalent process of an estimates committee process where, on a weekly basis almost, or certainly a fortnightly basis, the non-government members of this chamber, by and large because they control the committee, can hold to account government departments and senior executives in terms of public sector administration in estimates.

So, no, I have never supported members of the upper house, as a chamber, participating in the House of Assembly estimates committee process. I support the processes that we have here in the Legislative Council. There have been occasions in the past where, during the committee stage of the Appropriation Bill debate in the Legislative Council, individual ministers have been asked questions and have had advisers sitting in the adviser's box to provide answers. More often than not, the process has been to place questions on notice again, and ministers have given an undertaking to respond.

The main part of the honourable member's question is in relation to whether we will be seeking permission. Respectfully, we will, but we will of course accept the decision that the Hon. Ms Franks and her colleagues may well take.

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