Motions

Budget and Finance Committee

Adjourned debate on motion of Hon. R.I. Lucas:

1. That a committee to be called the Budget and Finance Committee be appointed to monitor and scrutinise all matters relating to the state budget and the financial administration of the state.

2. That the standing orders of the Legislative Council in relation to select committees be applied and accordingly—

(a) that standing order 389 be so far suspended as to enable the chairperson of the committee to have a deliberative vote only;

(b) that this council permits the committee to authorise the disclosure or publication, as it sees fit, of any evidence or documents presented to the committee prior to any such evidence being reported to the council; and

(c) that standing order 396 be suspended to enable strangers to be admitted when the committee is examining witnesses unless the committee otherwise resolves, but they shall be excluded when the committee is deliberating.

3. That members of the council who are not members of the committee may, at the discretion of the chairperson, participate in proceedings of the committee but may not vote, move any motions or be counted for the purposes of a quorum.

4. That a full-time research officer position be made available to assist the work of the committee.

(Continued from 7 May 2014.)

The Hon. G.A. KANDELAARS (20:37): I rise to speak on this motion. It will be no surprise to the Hon. Rob Lucas that the government opposes this motion for the same reason it has previously done so. This is not an appropriate way for such a committee to be established. The purpose of the standing orders for the establishment of select committees by the Legislative Council is so that the committees can be set up to look into a particular matter. This is a pseudo standing committee and not really a select committee, as it would consist of more than a one-line term of reference.

There are other existing mechanisms in this place, such as the estimates process in the House of Assembly, question time in both houses, the Auditor-General's Report, and the opposition's growing love for fishing expeditions that we know often result in their coming here with misleading information. It is important that this parliament has scrutiny, but it is also important that this parliament has credibility. So, if this is a genuine attempt to establish a select committee that seeks to provide some scrutiny, why not have one of the Independents, or if the opposition really were serious about this they would be proposing amendments to the Parliamentary Committees Act to establish a standing committee that would be part of the normal structure of the houses of parliament. For these reasons the government opposes the motion.

The Hon. M.C. PARNELL (20:39): I will be very brief. The Greens will support this motion, as we have every year that it has been put up. Certainly, the Hon. Gerry Kandelaars raises some interesting points about whether we could short-circuit this process and have some form of standing committee looking into budget and finance matters, but the short answer is that we do not and that this is the next best thing.

I will say that one part of this process I do like—and, in fact, it is a model that I have urged upon the Attorney-General's staff to consider when he introduces his intended standing committee into electoral matters—is the ability, as occurs in many other parliaments, for members who are not a formal part of the core membership of the committee to participate in deliberations, to ask questions of witnesses and to be part of the general work of the committee. I referred in an earlier contribution tonight to a federal committee that looked at electoral matters and, when you look at their report, you can see that there is a relatively small number of members, but there were 20 or 30 others who participated in that committee's work.

My experience with the Hon. Rob Lucas, who has in the past chaired this committee (who knows whether that will continue?), is that at any time I have asked to attend and ask questions of witnesses the request has always been granted and I have always had a fair go. I think it is a good model. I think in many ways it is a better model for getting to the bottom of matters than the estimates process the other place enjoys. For those reasons, the Greens will be supporting the re-establishment of this select committee.

The Hon. R.I. LUCAS (20:41): I thank members for their contributions. I will be, mercifully, brief. Can I acknowledge the comments the Hon. Mr Parnell has made because, indeed, I think in the Legislative Council this was a trailblazing reform in relation to what is referred to as 'non-participating members', for want of a better phrase. The Hon. Mr Parnell is indeed correct that the committee has never refused the opportunity for a member to attend should he or she indicate. As I think I indicated in moving the motion, a reasonable number of other members of the Legislative Council at varying stages have availed themselves of the opportunity to participate.

I think, as I indicated, the committee has also been amenable on occasions when one or two members had questions they wanted to ask but were unable to attend. They provided those questions to members of the committee and we have assisted those non-participating members in that way as well. We welcome the Hon. Mr Parnell's comments and, as I said, if he is indeed pursuing that with the Attorney-General in relation to other committees, it will be interesting to see what the government's response is, given their trenchant continuing opposition to even the existence of this particular committee. Sadly, they are ever conservative in terms of worthwhile reforms regarding accountability and transparency in the committee processes.

The second point I make is in relation to the standing committee comment that the Hon. Mr Parnell has made. Certainly, as he will know, that remains my very strong view. Should I live long enough ever to see a Liberal government in power, I hope that will be an initiative of the Liberal government. This government, of course, given its trenchant opposition to even a select committee, is unlikely to support a standing committee because a standing committee would actually guarantee permanent staffing to the committee.

This committee frequently passes a motion supporting the provision of research assistants to the committee and, Mr President, as the third president, I think, under that, the blowtorch will be placed upon you in terms of standing up for the integrity of the Legislative Council. The two previous presidents have failed dismally in adhering to the wishes of the Legislative Council in terms of providing assistance to the committee.

I know on a previous occasion that the government, when it opposed that particular provision, said that this was, in essence, a device for the Hon. Rob Lucas, as the potential chair, to get additional staffing. Can I assure all members that, for the brief period the committee did have some part-time assistance, my approach was that the research assistants available to the committee should be available to the members of the committee other than myself as the chair. Clearly, the research officer had to take instruction from me as the chair, but I am very happy for them to act in response to individual requests from other members.

As I indicated at the time, I am in the fortunate position of having had previous experience as both treasurer and shadow treasurer. A number of these documents and procedures are more familiar to me than potentially to other members, so the potential assistance of some corporate knowledge and staffing on the committee is more likely to be there for members of the government and the minor party members, and indeed members of the opposition who might not have had that same experience of public sector accounting. So, in the brief period that particular officer did some useful work in terms of trying to explain to members of the committee through research papers the sometimes difficult and complex public sector accounting rules which are not always consistent with accounting rules that some members might have of private sector organisations, and they can appear arcane or difficult or complex when compared to private sector accounting provisions.

If the council passes this particular motion, we look forward to the potential for your enthusiastic support, that you would break away from the inhibitions and restrictions placed upon the committee by the two previous presidents from the left. You, Mr President, as a member of the right now, the dominant faction in the Labor Party, may well choose to demonstrate your capacity to be different to those other unreconstructed lefties who might have inhabited the position of the president in days gone by. Time will tell as to how you might respond should this particular motion pass the Legislative Council. With that, I thank members for their support.

Motion carried.

The Hon. R.I. LUCAS (20:47): I move:

That the select committee consist of the Hon. J.A. Darley, the Hon. G.A. Kandelaars, the Hon. K.J. Maher, the Hon. A.L. McLachlan and the mover.

Motion carried.

The Hon. R.I. LUCAS: I move:

That the select committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to adjourn from place to place and to report on 19 November 2014.

Motion carried.