Estimates Vote

Legislative Council, $5,684,000

House of Assembly, $7,930,000

Joint Parliamentary Services, $13,031,000

Administered Items for Joint Parliamentary Services, $3,064,000

Membership:

Hon. A. Koutsantonis substituted for Hon. A. Piccolo.

Minister:

Hon. S.S. Marshall, Premier.

Departmental Advisers:

Mr A. Richardson, Auditor-General, Auditor-General's Department.

Mr I. McGlen, Deputy Auditor-General, Auditor-General's Department.

Ms M. Stint, Manager, Finance, Auditor-General's Department.

Mr R. Crump, Clerk, House of Assembly and Secretary, Joint Parliamentary Services.

The CHAIR: As the duly elected Chairman of Estimates Committee A, I welcome everybody to the first of the estimates committees sittings for 2020. I have some opening remarks I need to make. The estimates committees are a relatively informal procedure and, as such, there is no need to stand to ask or answer questions.

I understand that the minister and the lead speaker for the opposition, in this case the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, have agreed an approximate time for the consideration of proposed payments which will facilitate a change of departmental advisers. Can the Premier and Leader of the Opposition confirm that the timetable for today's proceedings previously distributed is accurate?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Yes, sir.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: To the best of my knowledge, yes.

The CHAIR: I might just add one qualifier. I understand the Premier has a press conference at 11 this morning; is that correct, Premier?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Yes, but that has been agreed prior.

The CHAIR: With that in mind, at this stage we are scheduled to reconvene at 11.15; we will just keep that in mind.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: I understood we had moved it to 11.30, but whatever works.

The CHAIR: We will take it as it goes. I am just flagging it, given all that is going on. Changes to the committee membership will be notified as they occur. Members should ensure the Chair is provided with a completed request to be discharged form. If the Premier undertakes to supply information at a later date, it must be submitted to the Clerk Assistant via the answers to questions mailbox no later than Friday 5 February 2021.

I propose to allow both the Premier and the leader to make opening statements of about 10 minutes each should they wish. There will be a flexible approach to giving the call for asking questions based on about three questions per member, alternating each side. Supplementary questions will be the exception rather than the rule. A member not on the committee may ask a question at the discretion of the Chair. Questions must be based on lines of expenditure in the budget papers and must be identifiable and referenced. I repeat that questions must be based on lines of expenditure in the budget papers.

Members unable to complete their questions during the proceedings may submit them as questions on notice for inclusion in the House of Assembly Notice Paper. There is no formal facility for the tabling of documents before the committee; however, documents can be supplied to the Chair for distribution to the committee. The incorporation of material in Hansard is permitted on the same basis as applies in the house; that is, it is purely statistical and limited to one page in length. All questions are to be directed to the Premier, not the Premier's advisers. The Premier may refer questions to advisers for a response.

The committee's examinations will be broadcast in the same manner as sittings of the house are broadcast, through the IPTV system within Parliament House via the webstream link to the internet and the Parliament of South Australia and video-on-demand broadcast system. I declare the proposed payments open for examination. Premier, do you wish to make an opening statement?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: No statement from me, sir.

The CHAIR: Leader of the Opposition, do you wish to make a statement?

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Just a very brief one, thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you to the Premier and his officials for being here today. As the committee may be aware, I wrote to the Premier on Monday, post the news that started to disseminate on Sunday afternoon regarding a number of cases of COVID-19. I think we all collectively wish that those circumstances were not currently with us in South Australia, but they are nonetheless here.

On the back of that information, I wrote to the Premier offering the opposition's total support for any move to delay estimates or postpone estimates if that would better suit the government, it being able to focus on the crisis at hand, particularly the Premier and his officials. I understand the Premier has decided to maintain the current schedule, which is entirely the Premier's and the government's prerogative, which is of course appropriate. Having said that, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the difficult circumstances that many South Australians now find themselves in, and that is naturally top of mind for the opposition.

It would not ordinarily be our preference to be asking questions beyond the immediate concerns of the South Australian public, but we nonetheless find ourselves in the position today where estimates has been scheduled and represents the only time, or one of the principal occasions, that the opposition is able to scrutinise expenditure of the state government and ask questions of the Premier while accompanied by his officials and can readily access more detail than might otherwise be able to be afforded to the Premier in a period like question time. Naturally, we will continue to pursue those questions today, albeit under circumstances that are regrettable or indeed unfortunate.

The CHAIR: Premier, do you wish to respond to that?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: No, sir.

The CHAIR: I call on members for questions to the Premier.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I refer the Premier to Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2 on page 162. There is a series of members of parliament who claimed the country members' accommodation allowance and who made reimbursements. Those reimbursements were made public. Subsequent to those public reimbursements, were there any other reimbursements made to the parliament?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am advised that all the details in regard to country member claims are now made clear on the parliamentary website with the dates and the person making the claims. There are a very small number of claims that go back to prior years, over and above those that the member for West Torrens referred to earlier. My understanding is these relate to four members and are very small amounts and they move in both directions, so some are up and some are down. We do not have those details with us here at the moment, but they are all very small variations, where maybe one day over the last 10 years was claimed incorrectly or underclaimed.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: If I can refer the Premier to the same reference, Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2, page 162, I overheard the Clerk telling you that four members had made payments. You said that they were up or down. Are you saying that some members were reimbursed?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: That is my understanding.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I also overheard the Clerk telling you the details of those claims. Could you detail them to the parliament?

Mr CREGAN: Point of order: there is speculation before the chamber as to what somebody else may or may not have said. It is clearly hearsay and the question should be confined to those matters that are in the index, not the supposed exchange provided on a private basis by way of advice.

The CHAIR: Actually, I uphold that point of order, member for Kavel. Premier.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I can assure the parliament that they are very minor alterations that relate back to prior periods and that going forward we are making it very clear that we need to have very transparent arrangements, the most transparent anywhere in the country, and they will be dealt with via the parliamentary website.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: The same reference again. Was the amount in the hundreds of dollars or the thousands of dollars?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: No, hundreds.

The CHAIR: Gentlemen, I ask you both to speak up a little bit, please. Premier, if you could pull your microphone a little bit closer, thank you. Member for West Torrens, could you repeat the question?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yes, sir. Was the amount reimbursed in the hundreds or thousands?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Hundreds.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Can you name the members?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: No, because we do not have the full detail of that, but what I can assure you is what I have been provided, that it was four members and it looks to me like it could potentially be just one night for each of those or in one case it could be two nights, over an extended period of time.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I overheard that former Minister Whetstone reimbursed money. That would take his indiscretions to over 90.

Mr CREGAN: Point of order: I raise the same point of order that I earlier raised. The examination is in relation to the budget papers, not what may or may not have been said by way of advice—supposedly overheard.

The CHAIR: I will allow the member for West Torrens to ask that question. Perhaps, member for West Torrens, desist from mentioning conversations. Ask specific questions.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I could not but help it, sir.

Mr CREGAN: It is not a fact. If you want to introduce facts, the way to introduce facts is clear in the standing orders.

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, could you repeat the question?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yes. I overheard—

The CHAIR: No.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I am sorry. I apologise, sir. Did Mr Whetstone reimburse another claim that he made inappropriately?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Sorry?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Did Mr Whetstone, your former Minister for Primary Industries, make another reimbursement to the parliament?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: No, that is not my understanding.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: He was reimbursed?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have provided my answer to the house. I do not have any further details to provide today.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same budget reference, did the member for Hammond make any further reimbursements in August?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I do not have any information to suggest that.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: You have no information to suggest that?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: We might try to find out further details and come back later in the estimates examination.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: On that same budget reference referred to by the member for West Torrens, will the Premier commit to publicly disclosing all details of each member, amount and date of any reimbursements made following a country members' allowance claim?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I think I just provided that we will try to find out some further information and come back before the end of estimates.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Just to be clear, though, is the Premier able to undertake a public disclosure of every reimbursement that has been made following a country members' allowance claim?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: As I said, I am seeking some advice on that and I hope to have that answer before we conclude the estimates on this item.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: An answer about whether or not you will be able to make that release, or an answer providing selected information?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am just trying to get that information. If we move to another line, I am more than happy to come back to this.

The CHAIR: The Premier is happy to come back to that.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Yes.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same reference, were all documents requested by the ICAC delivered to the ICAC?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I do not have any oversight of that whatsoever.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Well, you have the Clerk next to you.

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, rather than just have a conversation with the Premier, could you speak up and direct—

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I apologise. The Premier said he did not have that information. I asked if all information sought by the ICAC in its corruption investigation into Liberal MPs claiming the country members' allowance inappropriately was delivered. The Premier said he did not have that information, and I asked if he could please ask the Clerk, who is sitting alongside him.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I think it would be completely inappropriate for me to know about the provision of any documents to the ICAC, and I think that the member would appreciate that.

The CHAIR: And I am not sure, member for West Torrens, that either the Premier or the Clerk would necessarily know that information.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Well, there is only one way to find out, sir, and that is by asking. On the same budget reference, did any documents sought by the ICAC have privilege asserted over them?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I refer you to my previous answer.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Could I ask the Premier to please ask the Clerk if the parliament asserted any privilege over any document sought by the ICAC.

Mr CREGAN: Point of order, Mr Chairman. The witness before the chamber will take what advice that witness needs to provide an answer, but we are now traversing ground that the witness has in fact answered.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Witness? Witness to what?

Mr CREGAN: The point, too, Mr Chairman, is that you have clearly directed the member to reflect on the nature of the questions. You have provided that guidance, and the member persists in a line of questioning that does not reflect your guidance.

The CHAIR: Let's refer to the Premier as the Premier, in the first instance, member for Kavel.

Mr CREGAN: Well, my training, of course, is in the law.

The CHAIR: Your training, of course. As I said earlier, member for West Torrens, I do not know that either the Premier or the Clerk would have answers to the question that you are asking, so just bear that in mind.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: With due respect, Mr Chairman, this is the only opportunity the parliament has to have any oversight of the money expended in the parliament. One of the largest expenditures of the parliament to parliamentarians is the country members' allowance. There is a line in the budget paper about that. There is a very public corruption investigation underway into parliamentarians who have incorrectly claimed from that.

I think it is entirely appropriate that the people of South Australia have some transparency in those transactions. Because of the nature of parliament, if a body outside of parliament wishes to investigate it, privilege can be asserted over those documents that could incriminate or clear those parliamentarians. All I am simply asking of the Clerk of the House of Assembly, through the Premier, is: has privilege been asserted? It is a very simple question.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: This is an estimates hearing to examine the budget. This is not a budget question whatsoever; this is a question that could be and would be more appropriately directed to the Speaker.

The CHAIR: I wholeheartedly agree, Premier. My thought is that the Speaker has the determination over the question you are asking, member for West Torrens. I will bring you back to the budget papers.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I think it is telling that the Premier will not answer these questions. Again, on the same budget reference, what was the last month in which a member claimed from the country members' allowance or made a reimbursement to the country members' allowance?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Which was the last month? I think they would be claimed on a monthly basis, wouldn't they? I am advised that the most recent claims are on the website.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: And the reimbursements?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am advised that all the payments that relate to the current period are on there. I do not have advice as to which month they are, but they are the most recent ones that have been processed. With regard to the earlier assertion by the member for West Torrens that he thought—I do not want to paraphrase him—this was an opportunity for me to answer these questions with regard to the ICAC, I think it would be extraordinary if a Premier did have insight into precisely what the Speaker was doing with regard to document provision to the ICAC. I think it would be completely inappropriate and I think it reflects more on the member for West Torrens than it does on our government.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: On the same budget line and the same line of questioning, I appreciate the issue around payments of the country members' allowance. Presumably, when you mention the word 'payments', you are talking about the reimbursement from the parliament to the member. When was the last month that a member reimbursed the parliament for a claim or an incorrect claim?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Earlier, I said that I would take that on notice. If I could answer it today during estimates, I would, otherwise I will just take that question on notice.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same budget reference, the Premier said earlier that all the reporting for the period had been made. What was the definition of that period?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am not sure. That is all on the website. Do you want me to check the website for you?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: No, but you asserted to the estimates committee that all the reporting had been done for the period. What is the period you referenced?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: What I am advised is the most recent has been put onto the website.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yes, but what is that period? For what period? Is that for August, is it for June, is it for the last financial year? What is the period we are talking about?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I do not know. It is on the website. I could check for you, if you like.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Could you ask the Clerk?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I did, actually.

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, it is best that you do not direct the Premier to his advisers. He can choose to do that. Premier.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have nothing to add, sir.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same budget reference, Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2 on page 162, former Speaker Tarzia announced an investigation launched into the member for Waite. What was the cost of that investigation?

Mr CREGAN: Point of order: is the member seeking to introduce facts? In that case, he knows the procedure to do that.

The CHAIR: No, I do not uphold that. The member for West Torrens has referenced a budget line and it relates to cost, so I will accept the question.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Again, that would be a matter for the Speaker, not for me. There is a budget which is provided to the house, to the Legislative Council and to the Joint Parliamentary Service Committee. That is a generous budget but, operating within that budget, the Speaker is authorised to make payments and any details like that should be directed to the Speaker.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, this is an estimates committee of the budget. The parliament has been procured money through the budget and it has expended it, and I am asking about a piece of its expenditure. I would like the Premier to detail to the committee—or at least take on notice that question and give an assurance that he will come back to the committee—the cost of that investigation. Nothing could be more relevant.

The CHAIR: Remember also, member for West Torrens—and you would be well aware—that the Premier or any minister is entitled to answer the question in whichever way he or she wishes. Premier.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have nothing to add to my further answer, sir.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Why is the Premier refusing to take on notice a question regarding an expenditure of the House of Assembly—

Mr CREGAN: Point of order, Mr Chairman: that is an argument, 'Why is person X doing Y?' What is the question?

Mr MALINAUSKAS: I was just trying to ask it. Why is the Premier unable to take on notice a question regarding an expenditure of the House of Assembly regarding an investigation?

Mr CREGAN: Well, that is an assumption and it is an argument.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am happy to take that question on notice.

The CHAIR: Before you go, leader, I am just going to ask the Premier to repeat his answer please.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am happy to take that question on notice. We do not have that detail here, but I understand it is a very small number.

The CHAIR: Okay, so the Premier has taken that on notice.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: I do not want to be unreasonably particular, but I just want to understand what is being taken on notice. Is the Premier taking on notice the question of the cost of that investigation?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Sorry?

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Are you taking on notice the cost of that investigation?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Yes, I have provided information to the committee that there is a budget line for the House of Assembly. The Speaker is authorised to incur costs and make payment within that budget. There is certainly nothing to suggest that this payment for this activity goes above and beyond the authorisation. We are happy to take that question on notice.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same budget reference, was that investigation into the member for Waite made available to his legal team as he requested?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I do not have that information.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Could the Premier take that on notice and get back to the House of Assembly?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Again, I just think this is not a budget question; this is a question you can direct to the Speaker.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Again, sir, it is the equivalent of a budget measure. The parliament procured money; it spent it on an investigation. What they do with that document once they receive it is the purview of this committee; it is obvious. The Clerk is alongside him—

The CHAIR: Really, member for West Torrens, they are questions best put to the Speaker, in my opinion.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Sir, the Clerk of the House of Assembly is here to answer questions and advise the Premier. It is, I think, quite frankly staggering that the Premier is not even bothering to ask.

The CHAIR: Well, he has taken questions on notice.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have one answer already, and that is that the country members' allowance payments that are on the website are for the month of October.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Does that include reimbursements?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I do not have that information.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Could you get back to the committee on that as well?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: As I have said previously, they are the disclosure of payments made to country members. It is the most transparent system—the most prompt system—in the country. Previously, it was only done here in South Australia on an annual basis. Some other jurisdictions have quarterly reporting; we have monthly reporting. When we came to government after 16 years of Labor there was just one report per year with a total sum. We are now making it clear the person who is making the claim and the time when they are making that claim. We think this is the best system in the country.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Yes, we welcome the Premier's transparency around the country members' allowance, given the unprecedented rorting of it. The question that I want to ask on the back of that is: given the Premier's commitment to transparency and disclosure around the payment of the country members' allowance, is he willing to apply that same standard to the reimbursement of the country members' allowance?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have already said that I would take that question on notice.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: Okay.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I could say it again and again.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I refer the Premier to Budget Paper 4, Volume 4, page 17, program 1. Premier, are any of the Liberal MPs who were investigated by ICAC, or are currently under investigation by ICAC, indemnified for their legal expenses?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Not that I am aware of.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Not that you are aware of?

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, I do not believe we are at that budget line in our program.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I apologise, sir. I apologise profusely. I do not know why I did that.

The CHAIR: Nor do I, member for West Torrens.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Perhaps we should go back to the House of Assembly.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Why not?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Why not? That is where all the action is. I refer you, Premier, to Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2 on page 162. There were a series of inquiries made to the House of Assembly by media and they were not responded to. Was that your decision or the Speaker's decision?

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, that is not a question about expenditure.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I disagree, sir.

The CHAIR: You asked about a response.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: If I can explain, there were a number of media outlets that had done a very, very good piece of investigative work into the corrupt handling of the country members' allowance. They made inquiries of that expenditure to the parliament and those inquiries went unanswered. My question is: was that the Premier's decision or the Speaker's decision? That is my question, sir, and I am referencing the expenditure from the country members' allowance.

The CHAIR: It is tenuous, member for West Torrens.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Thank you, sir. Do you want me to repeat it?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Yes, please.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Media outlets had done an investigation about the way members of parliament had been claiming the country members' allowance through the expenditure of the budget reference that I had. Those inquiries were made to the House of Assembly and the Legislative Council, but this is from the House of Assembly. Whose decision was it for them not to respond to those media inquiries? Was it the government's or was it the Speaker's?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have just been advised that those requests have been responded to.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Ultimately, yes, but when they were initially made, Premier, is my question.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am just advised that it was a matter of resources and that when those resources were available to compile that information that information was provided.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: A supplementary question: were extra resources required for the parliament to deal with the country member allowance?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Not to my knowledge.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: So, if the resources were not available, was it a financial issue or was it a manpower issue?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: What I am advised is that that information has all been provided to the media, but it did take some time to compile. When that was done, that information was provided to the media.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: On the same budget reference: Premier, did you ever claim, as Leader of the Opposition, an accommodation allowance from the parliament?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Did I ever claim an accommodation allowance?

The CHAIR: Member for West Torrens, that is not related, in my mind, to the current budget.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: But I am sure the Premier, in the interests of transparency, is prepared to answer, sir.

Mr CREGAN: The committee is interested in current budget items.

The CHAIR: We are discussing the current budget, Premier.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: We are, but in the spirit of being open and transparent, I am sure in the early days of coming to parliament—I was elected in 2010—there was a country travel allowance for city members who travelled to the country, but I could not be sure of what was claimed in 2010 or 2011. I think that might have continued right through to 2013. There were allowances that were made for intrastate travel, interstate travel and overseas travel, and I made my submissions on that in accordance with the rules.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: That is true, but there is also a separate budget line for the Leader of the Opposition, and the Leader of the Opposition can make claims for allowance from the parliament. Did you use that allowance?

Mr CREGAN: Mr Chairman, there has been considerable indulgence in relation to the previous budget. This is 2020-21.

The CHAIR: Thank you, member for Kavel. I uphold the point of order. Of course, we are delving into history here, member for West Torrens. In fact, for some of the period the current Premier was not the Leader of the Opposition, so I need to bring you back once again to the current budget.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Thank you, sir. I refer to something that might be of interest to all of us in the House of Assembly, and again I refer to the same budget reference, expenditure, and the report of the reviewer of the operations of the Independent Commissioner Against Corruption and the Office for Public Integrity for the period of 1 July 2019 to 30 June 2020 by the Hon. John Sulan QC. On page 19, he says, 'One matter of an installation of a listening device in a government meeting room by the ICAC.'

Mr CREGAN: This is clearly fact.

The CHAIR: Yes, and again, member for Kavel, I am going to uphold your point of order. Member for West Torrens, you are introducing another reference outside of the budget.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: The reason I ask this question, sir, is that I am about to ask the Premier whether that listening device was installed in the parliament.

The CHAIR: If what, sorry?

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: This is a document that was tabled in the parliament by the Attorney-General on behalf of the Hon. John Sulan QC, who is the ICAC reviewer. Sir, it is a document that belongs to the parliament. It says on page 19 that the ICAC inappropriately installed a listening device in a government meeting room, and my question to the Premier is going to be, through the Clerk of the House of Assembly, whether or not that listening device was installed in the parliament.

Mr CREGAN: Point of order.

The CHAIR: Yes, thank you, member for Kavel. I uphold the point of order. Unfortunately, member for West Torrens, I am going to have to rule that question out of order.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: That is very disappointing.

The CHAIR: That is because it does not relate to the budget under examination. The member for West Torrens.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I refer the Premier, again, to Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2, page 162. Are the documents that are used to apply for the country members’ allowance stored here in the parliament, or are they stored remotely?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am advised that they are stored here in the parliament.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Again, I refer to the same reference. Who ultimately authorises the payment of the country members’ allowance to the members?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: The Clerks of the relevant houses.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Have the forms that the parliamentarians signed changed since the ICAC inquiry or the Remuneration Tribunal's new determination.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am advised that, yes, they have changed to pick up the changes in the Remuneration Tribunal determination.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: The forms that were before the changes of the Rem Tribunal, that is the most recent change which the government made a submission to, were those signatures by the parliamentarians claiming the allowance a legal declaration?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: So your question is with regard to the previous—

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: The previous form. If, for example, a member of parliament takes a trip, claims that they were in a city or town somewhere, or in Adelaide on parliamentary business, is that a legal declaration?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am not sure that this is a budget-related question—how the legal interpretation—

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I will explain how I think it is.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: Okay.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Because they are expending government money, I would have thought that to get access to that money you would need to make a declaration. I am just asking if it is a legal declaration or not. If you cannot answer, you can take it on notice.

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I will take that question on notice.

The CHAIR: I do not know that the Premier is in a position necessarily to offer a legal opinion on that.

The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Thank you, sir.

The CHAIR: No, his job is to answer questions on the budget today, leader. Any further questions?

Mr SZAKACS: I continue with Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2, page 162. I refer to the subject matter that the member for West Torrens touched on a moment ago regarding Justice Sulan's report that noted the improper installation of a listening device in a government—

Mr CREGAN: Point of order, Chair: I cannot find anything in the budget line here that relates to the question that is being formulated, and you have previously made a ruling in relation to the subject matter that has so far been disclosed.

Mr SZAKACS: Mr Chair, for the member for Kavel's benefit, I would be very happy to finish my question before you make a ruling.

The CHAIR: Yes, I am going to allow you to do that, but it is going to relate specifically to a budget line.

Mr SZAKACS: Again, I would be happy to ask my question and leave it to your ruling.

The CHAIR: Yes, go ahead.

Mr SZAKACS: The improper installation of a listening device in a government building—

Mr CREGAN: Where is the budget item?

Mr SZAKACS: Can I finish my question?

The CHAIR: Please do. You have laid the foundation.

Mr SZAKACS: For the Premier's benefit, not the member for Kavel's, Budget Paper 3, Appendix C, table C.2, page 162. Did the parliament expend any funds to remedy or remediate any of parliament's facilities as a result of the improper installation of listening devices?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I have no knowledge of that and—

Mr SZAKACS: Will you take that on notice, Premier?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: —as the Chairperson has already ruled, there is no budget that relates to this. If you have questions on this, I suggest you direct them to the Attorney-General.

Mr SZAKACS: With respect, Chair, I am not sure that you have made a ruling that that question was out of order.

The CHAIR: Ask the question one more time, member for Cheltenham. We will take the Premier's response, keeping in mind of course, as I said earlier, the Premier can answer questions as he sees fit. This is a very tenuous link to the budget, member for Cheltenham, and I might bring it to an end soon, but ask your question.

Mr SZAKACS: The expenditure of funds by the parliament—

The CHAIR: Yes, I understand that.

Mr SZAKACS: —is the sole purpose we are here today examining that budget. I re-put my question to the Premier: have funds been expended by the parliament to remediate or remedy any of parliament's facilities as a result of the improper installation of listening devices?

The Hon. S.S. MARSHALL: I am advised that there has been no such expenditure.

Mr MALINAUSKAS: In that case, Mr Chairman, we might move on to the Auditor-General's Department.

The CHAIR: There being no further questions, I declare the examination of the proposed payments for the Legislative Council, House of Assembly, Joint Parliamentary Services and Administered Items for Joint Parliamentary Services complete.