Department of Treasury and Finance, $70,268,000

Administered Items for the Department of Treasury and Finance, $1,752,379,000

Minister:

Hon. M.L.J. Hamilton-Smith, Minister for Investment and Trade, Minister for Small Business, Minister for Defence Industries, Minister for Veterans' Affairs.

Departmental Advisers:

Mr R. Manton, Director, Veterans SA, Department of Treasury and Finance.

Ms C. Graham, Deputy Director, Veterans SA, Department of Treasury and Finance.

Mr T. Crowe, Principal Management Accountant, Department of Treasury and Finance.

Mr K. Naughton, Chief of Staff.

The CHAIR: I call on the minister to make a statement if he wishes, but in light of the time it would be really useful if he did not, and ask him to introduce his advisers.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Can I take this opportunity to introduce my new officers. On my left is Mr Rob Manton, Director, Veterans SA, and Terry Crowe, Principal Management Accountant. I also have Kevin Naughton, Chief of Staff; and Chantelle Graham, Deputy Director of Veterans SA.

The CHAIR: Can we move straight to questions?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Straightaway.

Mr MARSHALL: My questions relate to Budget Paper 4, Volume 4, pages 164 and 165. Will the minister provide the budget expenditure for the veterans affairs programs in each year of the forward estimates as well as the net cost of services?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: You have just mentioned two pages, not a specific budget line, but you seem to be asking for information that is already in the budget paper.

Mr MARSHALL: The budget is over a four-year period. These relate to the past budgets and the current year.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: You want year 2 and year 3, or do you want the out years?

Mr MARSHALL: Yes, years 2, 3 and 4 four; I am happy for you to take those on notice. I just want to know if they are moving around very much.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: That is fine; I am happy to do that—

Mr MARSHALL: It is not a trick question.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: —and we will get back to you on that.

Mr MARSHALL: I refer to Budget Paper 4, Volume 4, page 164, and I want to ask about a preference to veterans in public employment. Has the government given any further consideration to the provision of preferential treatment to veterans for public employment? This was something the minister specifically covered in last year's estimates. I understand also, or I could be wrong because I have not looked at it myself, that there is something in the statutes that provides preferential treatment to veterans for employment within the Public Service. Is the minister aware of this? Is this something that he has followed up since he made that commitment to this committee last year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: We just want to find that so that we give you accurate information.

Mr MARSHALL: I am happy to go on to something else if you like. In particular, I am interested in the data.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: In the interest of time, I can get back to you on that if you want me to take that on notice.

Mr MARSHALL: Alright, thank you. Regarding the Dardanelles Cenotaph, what is the estimated cost of relocating the 101-year-old Dardanelles Cenotaph from the south-west Parklands to the northern end of the new ANZAC Centenary Memorial Walk?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: My advice is that the cost of moving it is around $10,000. I emphasise that the decision to recommend that it be moved was made by the Veterans Advisory Council and is generally supported by veterans. I know there has been some media coverage of some who oppose the move. It has been moved once before, but it is the general view of the veterans community that it should be relocated to what is now our premier memorial site. The cost is $10,000, but that is a matter that still has to go through process.

Mr MARSHALL: And will the state government be meeting the costs of the relocation?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, it is coming from the budget that was put aside for the ANZAC memorial walk, that $10 million.

Mr MARSHALL: What is the schedule for the relocation? What is the decision time frame?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I will ask Mr Manton to answer.

Mr MANTON: Thank you, leader. It is the subject of legal action by a Parklands activist in 2015. The Adelaide city council approved the relocation. That went before a Development Assessment Commission (DAC) hearing, where it was appealed. That appeal went to the ERD Court. The judge at the ERD Court found in favour of the relocation, so dismissed the appeal. The appellant has now appealed to the Supreme Court—we were advised of that last week and Crown law is representing us in that action and providing us with advice as to what the next steps ought to be.

The matter was also re-raised with the Adelaide city council by Councillor Wilkinson following a motion from the Unley city council. That matter was addressed last week, at which the Adelaide city council reaffirmed its decision to allow the relocation of the cenotaph.

Mr MARSHALL: And the legal challenges, who are they appealing against—the state government or the Adelaide city council?

Mr MANTON: They are appealing against the Department of Treasury and Finance and the Development Assessment Commission, so the appeal is against the bodies that made (a) the application and (b) the decision.

Mr MARSHALL: And the Department of Treasury and Finance because that is where veterans affairs sits?

Mr MANTON: That is correct.

Mr MARSHALL: And what is the total cost of the legal advice and representation to date?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: First of all, the government is very disappointed that those who oppose this have taken the pathway they have chosen, but I want to make something very clear on the public record, and that is that, now that the matter may proceed to court, those who seek to take it to court will pay their own way as far as the state government is concerned. I should also signal that (it will be up to the court), should the government be successful, we may consider looking to recover our costs.

We are very disappointed on behalf of veterans as a whole that this has taken the pathway it has, and those who have taken it down that pathway do so at their own instigation. We will look to protect the interests of veterans and the interests of South Australia, and we want it moved, as does the veterans community want it moved. It should be moved, and the rest is up to due process.

Mr MARSHALL: When you get that legal advice and representation, is that billed to Veterans SA, or do you just access the pool of government legal costs and there is no cost to the budget for Veterans SA?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: The government makes provision in its general budget for such events. This is a minor legal event, compared with some. Government will cover its costs through this process, and whether that is funded from the veterans affairs budget line or another budget line, or from headroom, will be something Treasury can determine. For purposes of administration, Veterans SA is part of Treasury and Finance, though it reports to me. Different departments are administered by different—

Mr MARSHALL: Yes, messy.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I wanted veterans affairs in Treasury and Finance, and that is where it sits. The veterans agency has pretty good communications with Treasury. Whatever the expenses are, I am sure they will—

Mr MARSHALL: Has veterans affairs always been in Treasury?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: No, I understand it was in the Attorney-General's Department for a period of time. That is probably historic because I think the first minister was the current Speaker when he was attorney. There was some consideration given by government to incorporating it into Social Inclusion, but where we landed was that it would be in Treasury and Finance for administration purposes.

Mr MARSHALL: Will the minister take it on notice to inform the parliament what the total legal costs are? You said that the government will recover this. Is it your expectation that that money be recovered from Veterans SA or from the applicant?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Firstly, yes, we will be more than open once we know what the costs will be, but of course the costs will not be known until the process has unfolded. This is a minor matter, so I would not expect it to be large. What I meant by seeking to recover its cost is that we reserve our right to make application, should we be successful, for the losing party to cover the government's cost. They are, in effect, the costs of the taxpayers of South Australia. Similarly, I would not be surprised if the other party did likewise should they be successful. We will not be asking the taxpayers of South Australia to pay for a process that we are disappointed to see unfolding.

You also asked a question about employment, just going back to your earlier question about jobs for veterans. The state government is currently developing a veterans employment framework for those ex-serving personnel who choose to transition out of defence and settle in South Australia. Veterans SA and representatives of the veterans community are involved in this project being led by the Office for the Public Sector, and I look forward to the outcomes being handed down later this year, at the end of August. Once they have been resolved, I will either make a statement in the house or arrange for the information to be passed across.

Mr MARSHALL: Who is leading that?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: We have a draft already in form for this, but there is work in progress.

Mr MARSHALL: That is actually what was reported last year, so it is good to see that some progress is being made. It is an important area, certainly from our side of the house. Will the minister elaborate on the proposal for the establishment of a defence veterans hub at ANZAC House with satellite hubs at both Glenside and Edinburgh?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: We are actually doing some planning work on relocating the veterans agency from where it is at the moment, which is on level 13 of State Admin on the same floor as my office, down to the Torrens Training Depot, should room become available. There are a couple of other moving bits with that. One of the reasons we would like to do that is that it would be helpful to many veterans to have the agency co-located with the RSL and those of the associations that are based down at Torrens. It would provide a better service to veterans. Frankly, I would like to get them out of State Admin and down to where the veterans are frequently coming and going.

Mr MARSHALL: And the hubs?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: We are working on whether or not a satellite hub could be developed at the Jamie Larcombe Centre at Glenside to provide advice to patients and their families, with a similar model being considered in the northern suburbs, likely at the Peter Badcoe VC Centre. Veterans SA is developing that strategy to address the most appropriate model.

The catch with these changes is that there is always a cost to them. We have a Mid-Year Budget Review, so my opportunity as a minister to seek funding for those changes would probably be at the end of this year, in the process for the move that will unfold towards the end of the year. We are doing some work on it but it will have a bill, and I want to make sure that we live within our means. I will have more to say about that as that process unfolds.

Mr MARSHALL: The hubs may or may not be included in the Mid-Year Budget Review, but will the decision to move Veterans SA down to the Torrens Parade Ground building—I think it is called ANZAC House—proceed?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I would like to do that, but I will need to argue my case to the Treasurer, because there will be money involved. I also think that we need to let the dust settle a little bit with the issues the RSL is facing at the moment, because that has an impact on office space and availability. There are also co-tenants down there. The History Trust is down there—

Mr MARSHALL: What is going to happen to them?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: That is probably a question to be referred to the arts minister because that is his portfolio, but—

Mr MARSHALL: I do not think he wants to move them out. Is it not your agency that is doing a business case to move them out, or is he making a separate application to move them out?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: If you want to ask questions about the History Trust ask them of the Treasurer, but what conversations I had with—

Mr MARSHALL: Why would I ask the Treasurer?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Sorry, I mean the minister responsible, who is the arts minister. It may or may not—

Mr MARSHALL: Has your agency had any discussions with the arts minister regarding the relocation of one of his agencies?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: We are having discussions across government about all these things, about a possible relocation of the veterans agency and the two hubs. However, there is further movement required on this, further discussions and considerations, and a budget needs to be put together, so it will be resolved in the second half of the year.

The CHAIR: The member for Elder has a question.

Ms DIGANCE: I would like to ask a question. I gave—

Mr MARSHALL: Twenty minutes?

The CHAIR: We will move beyond six.

Ms DIGANCE: You will be interested in this; it has reference to expenditure on commemoration. I want to ask the minister about the Women's Memorial Playing Fields, in particular the Bangka memorial, and what negotiations are underway. It is the same volume and page that you have been referring to—

Mr MARSHALL: Which volume?

Ms DIGANCE: Volume 4, Budget Paper 4, page 164. It is in reference to sacrifices made by South Australian veterans and it is to do with the Bangka memorial.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I am very happy to answer the question; it has a lot more budget information than I have received from those on my right in regard to their questions. This is a really important issue and it is in the member's electorate. She has been vigilant in—

An honourable member interjecting:

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Not with the redistributed boundary. It is in my electorate and it is—

Members interjecting:

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: It is in both electorates. They are sharing the love—

The CHAIR: Order!

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: It actually used to be in the member for Davenport's electorate before the last redistribution, so I hope he will be as earnest in pursuing the cause as the member for Elder has been. It has been a long-term goal of mine, and of many others, to see the Women's Memorial Playing Fields reinvented and reinvigorated.

They are a wonderful facility that has two functions. Firstly, it is a memorial, and my interest in it as the Minister for Veterans' Affairs is whether or not we can help with the commemoration of that wonderful facility, which commemorates the sacrifice made by so many women during various conflicts. I want to see that memorial and place of commemoration lifted, but I am also in discussions with the Minister for Recreation and Sport about what we can do in regard to the playing fields.

A lot of work has been done on this and there has been a lot of communication between the council, sporting groups and other stakeholders, but there is quite a lot of money involved and it is complex. We would like some help from the federal government, but I will say that the current member for Elder has been absolutely tireless in pursuing this, both as a woman with an interest in women's sport but also as someone who values the commemoration aspect of this very important place.

SACA is involved, because they have the current lease, as is the Forestville Hockey Club, the City of Unley, the City of Mitcham and a range of other sporting clubs. I have met with a lot of them with the member for Elder, and we have done a lot of work on this together. We would love to see a reinvention of the site, but it is going to require some money.

It is probably going to require some cooperation from the commonwealth, and anything those on my right can do to persuade their Liberal Party colleagues in Canberra to help out would be appreciated. I do not care who gets the credit, as long as we get an outcome. I am more than happy to do a joint press release down there with you. I am sure the member for Elder would be equally happy if you can split it fifty-fifty, but we need to improve that site for sport and for commemoration.

The CHAIR: Who has another question? Leader.

Mr MARSHALL: In the 2015-16 financial year, the Legacy Club and the RSL each received a grant of $100,000 from the veterans affairs portfolio. Did these two organisations receive grants in 2016-17 and, if so, how much in each case?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: The veterans affairs portfolio allocated $273,136 of grants to the veterans community. As the leader observes, $100,000 of that went to Legacy and $100,000 of that went to the Returned and Services League.

Mr MARSHALL: In the 2016-17 year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: In 2016-17, and $25,000 of that is provided by the Department of the Premier and Cabinet, by the way.

Mr MARSHALL: For each of those?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Only for the RSL. The mission of the Returned and Services League is to care for the health and wellbeing of service members. Legacy is dedicated to caring for families of deceased veterans. Today, Legacy has responsibility for over 100,000 widows and 1,900 children. The remaining $75,000 for the RSL is from the veterans affairs annual allocation of grants, to be approved by the veterans minister.

The annual allocation of grants must be consistent with a range of obligations, including the education of South Australians about the state's involvement in our nation's military history, the honour and commemoration of service and sacrifice, to assist the education of South Australian veterans' dependants and any other purpose of a like kind determined by the minister. Grant applications are assessed by Veterans SA, which provides a recommendation to the minister for approval. I have a long list of grants that have been approved here.

Mr MARSHALL: In round terms, you are saying that last financial year, there was $273,000 in grants, of which $200,000 of the $273,000 were for those two—

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: That is right.

Mr MARSHALL: —and which from one of the $100,000 you got $25,000 back. You have $73,000 worth of grants in addition to those. Is it possible to read it or, with only one minute to go, can that be provided to the opposition?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: The answer is, yes, I am more than happy to provide the list.

Mr MARSHALL: Can you also give an indication as to what the allocation for this is going to be for each year of the forward estimates, whether it is still $273,000? I note that in the budget paper it says $283,000, but includes grants and subsidies, so it does not quite reconcile with the $273,000. Is there a reason for that?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I will have to take that on notice because it deals with information outside the immediate budget paper. I will get back to you on it. I am happy to provide the list of grants given.

Mr MARSHALL: Thank you. How much grant money was paid by the ANZAC Day Commemoration Fund in the 2016-17 year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: First of all, I will just remind the committee that we have now agreed to combine these two organisations—

Mr MARSHALL: Going forward?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: —yes, going forward—into one entity, so you can expect all the funds to be managed under a single system henceforth, but $340,031.43 is the answer to the question.

Mr MARSHALL: That was the amount paid out last financial year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: That was allocated in 2016-17.

Mr MARSHALL: And you would not be expecting any going forward, because now it would be out of a different—

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Sixty-nine applications, 45 successful grants, and I would expect that to be added on to or amalgamated with the earlier list or the list I will provide you with.

Mr MARSHALL: Okay.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, this amount to which I refer, $340,000, has been a slightly different process in that it has been an annual application and receipt, where the grants that I have been administering through the other process have virtually been a rolling process of application and grant, so—

Mr MARSHALL: So if you are unsuccessful one year it could go back in?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, I think that is right, but we will be reviewing that once the two organisations are brought together. We will have a simple, easy-to-use process.

Mr MARSHALL: Good, so here on page 164 in the middle of that table it says, 'Grants and subsidies', $283,000, which is the same as it was as the estimated result for last year. Am I to understand that essentially for the ANZAC Day Commemoration Fund there will be no additional expenditure this current financial year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: You will find the money mentioned listed under intergovernmental transfers on page 164.

Mr MARSHALL: So this is paid out to somebody else to administer.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: No, I think what it means is that that money will be transferred into Veterans SA.

Mr MARSHALL: But these are expenses, so they are transferred out, not in.

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I am understanding that the $360,000 mentioned as intergovernmental transfers is the money that has previously been managed by the council. It is paid into a Department of Treasury administered item account, and then it will find its way to the recipients through the process we established.

Mr MARSHALL: It is moving around a bit: $424,000 in 2015-16, $423,000 last financial year, and this year it is a little bit lower, $360,000. Does the minister envisage that that amount is going to continue in that order of magnitude? Can the minister provide the opposition with what that amount is for each of the years of the forward estimates?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes, we expect the current rate of allocations—that is, $360,000 plus the $274,000—to be to continued.

Mr MARSHALL: In that order of magnitude?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Yes. There will probably be an adjustment for CPI or whatever. We did beef things up for the centenary of ANZAC from World War I. There was a bit of extra effort, and additional people were put into the agency, so there may be a discussion, not next year but the year after; I may get some pressure from Treasury. I may be asked whether we need the same level of grants given that the commemoration of World War I has come to an end, etc., etc., but that is probably a budget fight for another day, next year.

Mr MARSHALL: Just following up something that was raised at last year's estimates committee when you told the committee stories that some relics exist on the Repat site, my question is: have any relic underground structures, such as air-raid shelters or fully set-up operating theatre and recovery wards, been uncovered by excavations on the Repat site?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: The agency advises me that as far as they are aware there are no tunnels or undiscovered treasures, shall we say, at the Repat site. That is the agency's advice.

Mr MARSHALL: Could you clarify the evidence that you provided to this estimates committee last year that indicated that these relics exist?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I will have to check the Hansard to see exactly what was said and what the answer was, but that is the advice the agency has given me today.

Mr MARSHALL: How many veterans' graves and memorials in the Derrick Gardens and RSL walls area of Centennial Park are covered by the new tenure agreement with the Centennial Park Cemetery Authority? Also, what is the cost of that agreement to the state? Also, do you plan to provide that level of protection in perpetuity?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: I will have to take that on notice because there are quite a few questions within the question, but my immediate advice is that around $96,000 annually is the cost to the state in overall terms. I will ask the agency to look at the question in detail and answer each of its component parts.

Mr MARSHALL: I have gone over time, but I would like to ask one more question because these are very important people in our community. I would like to ask about 30 more questions. In particular, I would like to ask about the valuing our veterans project. What is the current status of the Valuing our Veterans Community-Data Collection Project that we were informed about at last year's estimates, which was due for completion earlier this year?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: The Valuing our Veterans Community-Data Collection Project aims to establish a process for collecting data on veterans and their families to be used by identified state government services, such as health, mental health, education, correctional services, social inclusion, higher education, etc. The project is an important next step in the state government's ongoing support for South Australia's veteran community. It is proposed the data will be de-identified so that all data collected is not available to be linked to specific individuals. An inaugural veterans' round table was held in Canberra from 24 to 25 November 2016.

One of the outcomes from the VMRT was the recognition of the need for jurisdictional collections for incarceration. The Department for Correctional Services is involved and is committed to the collection of data in relation to incarcerated veterans. DCS has also conducted a limited survey asking prisoners to self-report previous military service. As at 29 March 2016, 30 prisoners had self-reported past military service. A question about service in the ADF was added to the paper-based admissions form in September 2016.

As the new process for collecting data on veterans is IT-based, the department is required to undertake changes to the IT system before being able to fully manage the central collection data. It is anticipated the IT changes will be scheduled in approximately August 2017 and we expect to receive the data in the near future. It is planned that prisoners who report previous military service will be asked if they are willing to have their details provided to peer support groups, such as ex-military rehab centres and ex-service organisations during incarceration.

Regarding social inclusion, from July 2017 the Specialist homelessness services collection manual has been updated to include a section on whether the homeless person presented for assistance is a current or former ADF member. The first data from this undated question is expected in the near future.

In relation to health, SA Health is committed to capturing data on veterans used in the public health system following the rollout of the new EPAS. The precise questions have not yet been agreed to and discussions are continuing. On suicide prevention, my department of Veterans SA sought advice from the Coroner's Court about how best to understand what statistics on veterans' suicide are currently available and the practices and jurisdictional data collection for veterans' suicide response has been asked for in the near future.

Regarding police, my department, Veterans SA, has commenced discussions with SA Police representatives on the merits of the collection of statistics on ex-Australian defence personnel at the point of charge, with a view to making them aware of assistance available to them through the RSL and ex-military rehab centres.

On education and child development, discussion is ongoing with DECD on collecting data on children, whose parents are current or former ADF personnel, in the school electronic administration system, EDSAS.

The CHAIR: Would you like to finish with one more question?

Mr MARSHALL: No, that was it.

The CHAIR: You are finished altogether?

Mr MARSHALL: Yes.

The CHAIR: There is no further time for questions—

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: Madam Chair, I need to correct an answer given earlier. The question asked of me last year by Dr McFetridge about the Repat referred to rumours about an underground hospital—it says rumours—and my answer was, 'Unfortunately, investigations and technology have not quite located their exact position.' So it seems to be—

Mr MARSHALL: When you say they have not located their exact position—

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: This is what I said, 'Until then, it will remain, as with the old Adelaide Gaol, one of Adelaide's many mysteries.' In other words, it is all rumours and there is no evidence or proof of any such tunnels.

Mr MARSHALL: So you do not think they do exist?

The Hon. M.L.J. HAMILTON-SMITH: That is not the point. The point is you suggested that I had confirmed they did exist; I did not. That was incorrect. It was rumours—best not to ask questions about rumours.

The CHAIR: There being no further time for questions, I declare the examination of the proposed payments completed. I lay before the committee a draft report for committee A.

Ms DIGANCE: I move:

That the draft report be the report of the committee.

Motion carried.

The CHAIR: I thank everyone for their cooperation this afternoon—the minister and his advisers and the members of the committee.

At 18:10 the committee concluded.