House of Assembly Fifty-Fifth Parliament, First Session (55-1) 55 1 Parliament of South Australia House of Assembly published Question Time Children in State Care Children in State Care Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Children in State Care Mr TEAGUE (Heysen) (14:13): In light of the minister's answer, there is a supplementary: is the minister content with the trajectory of the growth in numbers of children in care in light of the published figures over the last three months? With your leave and that of the house I will explain. The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly West Torrens Minister for Infrastructure and Transport Minister for Energy and Mining The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Point of order, sir. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The member has sought leave, but I do see that the member for West Torrens is seeking to raise a point of order with me, which I will hear under 134. Member for Heysen, please be seated. I will listen closely to the member for West Torrens. The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly West Torrens Minister for Infrastructure and Transport Minister for Energy and Mining The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Standing order 97: seeking to find out whether a minister is 'content' is seeking an opinion, which is out of standing orders. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Yes, that may be, but I am going to give the member for Heysen the opportunity to recast the supplementary question. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: It is in the context—the first reference in the context of answers to questions in estimates on 21 June 2022 in relation to the stated objective. In circumstances where the three last published numbers of children in care were 4,848—a record number— The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly West Torrens Minister for Infrastructure and Transport Minister for Energy and Mining The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Point of order, sir. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: —exceeding the prior reported number of 4,828, a record— The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for Heysen, there is a point of order. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: —and 4,810, itself a record as well. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for Heysen, be seated. There is a point of order which I am bound to hear under 134 immediately. The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly West Torrens Minister for Infrastructure and Transport Minister for Energy and Mining The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Standing order 97: the shadow minister is attempting to introduce facts without leave of the house. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Very well. There is another difficulty, which is that I am not certain as to how some of the material that is now sought to be introduced does arise out of the question. However, I am going to give the member for Heysen one final opportunity—as I did the member for Hammond yesterday—to recast, again. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: The question which is supplementary to the answer is: is the minister content with the trajectory? I seek leave to introduce those facts. So I do seek that leave. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for Heysen, the difficulty previously was that I allowed you an opportunity to recast in relation to you seeking an expression of opinion. You now reintroduce the same question to me and hope that I don't observe that it is the same. I am going to give you a fourth opportunity to recast, and if you don't I am, as we did yesterday, going to turn to, on this occasion, the member for King, who has patiently been seeking the call. The member for Heysen has the call. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: Does the minister have a view in relation to the trajectory of numbers of children in care? With your leave, sir, and that of the house, I will explain. Leave granted. Mr TEAGUE House of Assembly Heysen Mr TEAGUE: The last three published numbers of children in care are as follows: most recently 4,848 children in care—a record, prior to that 4,828—a record, and prior to that the previous month was 4,810—also a record. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: The member for Heysen threads a fine line. The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD House of Assembly Reynell Minister for Child Protection Minister for Women and the Prevention of Domestic and Family Violence Minister for Recreation, Sport and Racing The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD (Reynell—Minister for Child Protection, Minister for Women and the Prevention of Domestic and Family Violence, Minister for Recreation, Sport and Racing) (14:16): Can I first of all just say: in relation to the purported facts that the member for Heysen referred to, they are actually not the most recently published figures. I just wanted to make the house aware of that. What I would also say, and I go back to my earlier comments, is it's just incredibly disappointing the lack of ability to engage in the deep complexity of issues that families are facing: intergenerational trauma, poverty, mental ill health, domestic violence, substance misuse. To also fail to understand the complexity— The Hon. J.A.W. GARDNER House of Assembly Morialta Deputy Leader of the Opposition The Hon. J.A.W. GARDNER: Point of order, sir. The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD House of Assembly Reynell Minister for Child Protection Minister for Women and the Prevention of Domestic and Family Violence Minister for Recreation, Sport and Racing The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD: —inherent in the child protection system. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! Minister, there is a— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy Premier and the member for Chaffey are called to order. The member for Morialta on a point of order. The Hon. J.A.W. GARDNER House of Assembly Morialta Deputy Leader of the Opposition The Hon. J.A.W. GARDNER: Standing order 98 prevents debate. It is reasonable, your convention that has been upheld a number of times—you can have compare and contrast. What this minister is doing, and what she has been doing throughout question time, is not compare and contrast when she just makes personal attacks on another member of parliament. Standing order 127 could be applied, but 98 is simply the rule that ministers should have to follow at all times. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: There is considerable merit in the matters that the member for Morialta raises with me. One difficulty, of course, with 127 is that reflections on the competence or otherwise of the questioner probably invites the questioner, rather than the deputy leader, to raise those matters with me, if they were to be raised under 127. Nevertheless, the member for Morialta presses 98 with me. I am listening carefully. I understand that the minister is seeking to introduce some context by way of compare and contrast. I fear that we may have passed the permissible level of compare and contrast that might otherwise be tolerated by the chamber. The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD House of Assembly Reynell Minister for Child Protection Minister for Women and the Prevention of Domestic and Family Violence Minister for Recreation, Sport and Racing The Hon. K.A. HILDYARD: I think I have pointed out in my previous answer the trajectory around growth and the growth during the period of their term in government, so I won't continue on that point. But to give some general information about numbers in the context of the child protection system is really, really important because, as I said before, what the child protection system and workers in the child protection system contemplate every single day is that really complex set of issues that many South Australian families are facing—heartbreaking issues that they are facing. When a child protection worker visits a particular family, they make a decision every day, and they carry this risk every single day. They make a decision about whether it is the right moment, the most appropriate thing to do to remove a child to keep them safe. I will certainly never, ever resile from that being necessary in particular circumstances. We would never want to not do that when it is necessary. Of course, that does add to the numbers. I am never going to apologise when we need to take that step, but what I would say, in terms of thinking about the numbers, is that making that decision is always, always, every day weighed up against the decision that a worker may have to make to spend time and resources—including resources that can be drawn on from the $171 million of additional funding that we have put into the child protection system since last year—to strengthen a family, to try to keep that family together. That is the context that has to be understood. That just has to be understood by people in our community, by people in this sector and absolutely by people here, including those opposite, when we contemplate the numbers of children in care that we contemplate in child protection. I am giving a briefing to the member later this afternoon. I know he had to cancel the last one. I think he was in here speaking against a particularly important issue when he had to cancel the last one. But I will be briefing him this afternoon and I will attempt to try to give more context, to try to build understanding and capacity for empathy for those issues that families in our community face who engage with the child protection system.