House of Assembly Fifty-Fourth Parliament, Second Session (54-2) 54 2 Parliament of South Australia House of Assembly published Parliamentary Procedure Parliamentary Procedure Speaker's Ruling, Dissent Speaker's Ruling, Dissent The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly West Torrens The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS (West Torrens) (14:25): I move: That the Speaker's ruling be disagreed to. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Is there a seconder? Honourable members House of Assembly Honourable members: Yes, sir. An honourable member interjecting: The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yes, because you are trying to cover up corruption. Members interjecting House of Assembly Members interjecting: The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Has anyone stayed at your house, Premier? The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Is the member for West Torrens able to speak for 10 minutes? The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Sir, the idea that this house cannot inquire of private members whether or not they have made applications to this parliament to be reimbursed for the country members' allowance, quite frankly, is not in standing with the standing orders. Sir, you have let this house down. This house has every right—the people of South Australia have every right—to ask these questions of members. Have they applied in the exact observance of the rules, which entitles them to be paid up to and over $120,000 over return? The idea that somehow this parliament cannot ask the member for Finniss why it is, all of a sudden, he moved from Mount Compass to Victor Harbor—which happens to be 75 kilometres from the house—is abhorrent. That we cannot ask if members have stayed with the President of the Legislative Council while claiming this allowance, quite frankly, is abhorrent. That we cannot ask members opposite— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —these questions shows that they are covering up corruption. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Let's be clear about this: we are entitled to ask questions. The Premier told the public yesterday that he has been to the house of the President of the Legislative Council, who lives in his electorate, but not inside. We want to ask questions about that. We want to ask questions about members who have applied for this allowance. We want to ask questions about the member for Narungga, who has stayed at the Hon. Terry Stephens' house. Did he incur an expense when he stayed at that house? Is he paying rent to the Hon. Terry Stephens? He says no. Has he declared this benefit to the house? When you receive a benefit from another member that exceeds $750, you have to declare it to this house. He shook his head and said, no, he did not, but of course, sir, you are denying us our right to ask him that question on the public record. How much money is the member for Narungga deriving from staying at the MLC Terry Stephens' home rent free? How much benefit has he accrued? Remember, of course, that he can claim a benefit of up to $30,000 a year. Who else has stayed with the Hon. Terry Stephens? Who else has taken advantage of this country members' allowance to enrich themselves at an expense that is not entitled to them by the taxpayer? The idea that you have just arbitrarily ruled that members of parliament who put their name to an application to this house to be paid are somehow not responsible to this house for that application is, quite frankly, absurd—of course they are. They are also required to explain themselves not only to this house but to the public. The idea that somehow any parliamentarian can derive a secret benefit from the parliament and not have it publicly scrutinised is ridiculous. This is a parliament. You cannot earn that kind of money— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! Members on my right will have an opportunity. Members interjecting: The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —and not declare it. Of course you have to declare it. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Minister, be quiet. The member for West Torrens has the call. He is entitled to be heard. The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: You can hear the defence of this behaviour from members opposite interjecting. You can hear it—the protection racket from the Premier down. The protection racket— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —has begun. They have wrapped their arms around— The Hon. J.A.W. Gardner interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Minister for Education! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —the Hon. Terry Stephens because it implicates members of the House of Assembly. They do not want us to ask these questions. The country members' allowance is a very important allowance. It is an allowance that allows country members to come to the parliament and ensure that country people are represented in this parliament. What it is not about is enriching themselves. What it is not about is staying somewhere rent free and incurring no expenses and pocketing the money. That, sir, is corruption. That, sir, is illegal. We have every right in this parliament to ask the member for Narungga how much rent does he pay the Hon. Terry Stephens when he stays at his house. How much does it cost him to be at his house? What expense does he incur when he drives his taxpayer-funded vehicle to Adelaide and parks it at the Hon. Terry Stephens' house and sleeps there? Why is he claiming $260 a night while he is here? Why can't we scrutinise those payments? Why can't we look at those details? How dare members opposite and, indeed, sir, as much as it troubles me to say this, how dare you, sir, stop asking these questions. We cannot compel answers from members opposite. We do not have that power. This is not a court. We cannot force members to incriminate themselves. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order, members on my right! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yes, as much as I would love to ask the Premier has he really not been inside Terry Stephens' house like he told the public yesterday— Members interjecting: The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Well, good, the Premier has just put on the parliamentary record— The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —that he has not been inside the Hon. Terry Stephens' house—a very, very interesting admission by the Premier. I would also like to ask the Premier a few questions— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: I would also like to ask the Premier a few questions about why shouldn't he be publishing every single Liberal MP's—indeed, every single member of his house and the upper house, all the application forms. What is it he is afraid of? Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: What is it he is hiding? Why does he not want us to publish it? What is he afraid of? The best transparency and the best disinfectant is sunshine. Let it all out. Make it all public. All he has to do is release the claim forms. The Premier's excuse is he just works here. He is not in charge of the party room: he is just the Premier. He just collects a cheque every week as Premier of South Australia. He has no control over his party room. How is it possible that anyone can believe that the Premier of this state cannot tell his party room, using his authority: release everything. He wants the people of South Australia to believe he is powerless. Well, that is ridiculous. The most powerful person in the Liberal Party is the Premier of the state. Release the documents, release all the documents, release them all. The Hon. S.K. Knoll interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Minister for Transport, be quiet! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Even worse, what the Premier is doing now is running a protection racket for his members, protecting them from scrutiny. He does not want them asked questions. Why is it— The Hon. T.J. Whetstone House of Assembly The Hon. T.J. Whetstone: Take it outside. The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Take it outside? A very interesting point. The member for Chaffey says, 'Take it outside.' We have—every single day I make these accusations outside the parliament. The Liberal Party should release all their applications for the country members' allowance. If they have nothing to hide, if they have done nothing wrong, then release them. Why won't they? Why is it? Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: Yesterday, I saw two members being questioned by the media. The first was the member for Finniss, being asked questions— Mr Pederick interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for Hammond, please! The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS House of Assembly The Hon. A. KOUTSANTONIS: —by a journalist. He nearly pulled a hamstring running so fast to get away from that journalist. The other, the member for Narungga, made a very interesting point. He said repeatedly, over and over again like he was briefed by a lawyer, 'I've incurred expenses. I've incurred expenses. I've incurred expenses.' What expenses has he incurred? What are they? Is it rent? Is it a meal allowance? Does the Hon. Terry Stephens charge him for dinner? What is he charging for electricity, board and rent? We would like to know. Who else has stayed with the member for Narungga at that house, and why will the Premier not make it public? These come down to the fundamental questions about character and members opposite. Sir, you have a responsibility to this house to allow the opposition to do its job. How the government answers those questions is a matter for them, but we have the right to ask these questions. We are now in a situation, sir, where you are stopping us from even asking the questions. You are not letting us even pose the questions to members opposite, and as members interject and try to stifle this debate it shows the level of contempt they have for scrutiny. As we try to ask them questions about what is going on, there is a cacophony of noise trying to protect the corruption that is going on within the Liberal Party, the corruption of this country members' allowance. Let us ask the questions. Let us ask individual members whether they have claimed and why they have claimed, and what expenses they incurred when they claim. Why can we not ask those questions? Of course, the Speaker is saying that he has pulled up some precedent, which quite frankly does not stand. Sir, allow us to ask these questions. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! Before the minister speaks, can I confirm that the motion is seconded? It is seconded. I believe that it was seconded, but it has been seconded again. The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly Schubert Minister for Transport Minister for Planning The Hon. S.K. KNOLL (Schubert—Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Local Government, Minister for Planning) (14:36): I confirm, according to the standing orders, that I will be speaking against this motion. Mr Speaker, in doing so, can I— Ms Stinson interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for Badcoe! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —say that this is a disgusting and baseless slur upon you by a member who ought to know better, and probably does know better, and this faux outrage he is displaying, is nothing more than a performance. He also clearly chooses not to understand how parliament works. Mr Speaker, your position is one that is directly derived from the Governor himself. In fact, the country members' allowance is something for which the parliament is responsible under your jurisdiction, as opposed to the Premier's jurisdiction, and that tirade blurring the lines between Premier and Speaker I think is something that needs explanation. In my case, I am happy to make this explanation—that there are differences between the government and the parliament. In fact, the member for West Torrens is often wont to bleat that the parliament is sovereign, yet in his speech he was trying to suggest that the parliament is not sovereign; in fact, the Premier should just tell the Speaker what to do. Well, that is not the way this parliament works. It is not the way that they would want it to work— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —and what we have is a very confused message from the member for West Torrens, who clearly could not get his internal cognitive processes all lined up to actually produce a consistent argument. Standing order 96— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —which has stood in the standing orders for a long period of time, has had rulings from countless Speakers in relation to its application. For the member for West Torrens' awareness, essentially the parliament as a distinct venue for asking questions of private members—those questions should relate to matters that are before the house. Whether that be bills, whether that be public business, whether that be reports before the house— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —the standing order is there to say that private members can be asked—for instance, if a presiding member who is not a minister has a report that may fall due, a question could be asked about that so that the house can be informed how that parliamentary business is being undertaken in the time frames and all that sort of stuff in relation to that. That is what standing order 96 allows to happen. It is not there to inquire into the private dealings of members. There are many avenues— The Hon. A. Koutsantonis interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: Again, the reason I say 'private members' is that there is a difference between government members and ministers and private members of this house. Because this country members' allowance does not just apply to government members; it actually applies to all members, whether they be opposition or crossbench. Mr Speaker, what I would say in your defence is that you have been more transparent in the last 48 hours than any Speaker on this topic in the history of the South Australian parliament. This is another example of, 'Do as we say, not as we did.' Again, the outrage from members opposite might have some authenticity if this was something that, when a member of their party sat in your chair, they made the decision to release information. They did not. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. A. Koutsantonis House of Assembly The Hon. A. Koutsantonis: We don't abuse it. The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Member for West Torrens! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: We have released this information and the Speaker—you, sir—has released this information under this government's tenure. I certainly accept that you have made that determination for the time that you have been Speaker, and I think that that is the right determination, and again it is one that speaks to the transparency of government and of parliament under this government's regime, as opposed to when we have had Labor or other members sitting in this chamber. Question time is a venue to ask questions of the government. If the member for West Torrens wanted to make other inquiries, there are other bodies that are appropriate to do it. For instance, in relation to the country members' allowance, it is actually something on which the Auditor-General has jurisdiction. Again, that is an appropriate body to be able to look at and inquire into matters such as this. Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: What I would also point out is that much of the tirade from the member for West Torrens actually related to a member who is not even part of this chamber. For members who are a part of other chambers, again it would be quite odd to use this chamber to inquire into. Yet again the member for West Torrens was trying to make that argument. I do note your statement, Mr Speaker, at the outset today. You confirmed that you have been more transparent than anyone who has ever sat in your chair. I would also confirm that you made a statement that you are looking into and advising about what other jurisdictions do in relation to this matter. What I do not accept and what the government does not accept and what this side of the chamber does not accept is that there should be some baseless smear campaign run by the member for West Torrens, who has form on this issue— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! Member for West Torrens, I know you got a bit but you're giving a bit now too. The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —and who has chosen this venue, as opposed to venues outside, to be able to make accusations such that he has. There is a reason why he wants to use this castle to make those accusations, and I think that speaks volumes about that. Again, I think it is something for the member for West Torrens to reflect on. We will not be lectured on being more transparent than anyone before and you having been more transparent than anyone ever before by those who were less transparent when they had opportunity and when Speakers from their party had opportunity. We will not abide by the hypocrisy of those who ask us to do as they say rather than as they did. But we will do what is right, what is fair and what is transparent, and I am sure you, sir, will do what is right, fair and transparent in relation to this. The public of South Australia can know that, since the election of March 2018, they have had a government that has been more open and transparent, whether that be relating to ministers appearing in government advertising, whether that be ministers— Members interjecting: The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: Order! The minister has the call. The Hon. S.K. KNOLL House of Assembly The Hon. S.K. KNOLL: —putting alcohol bills on their ministerial credit cards. There is a whole host of ways that this government has been more transparent than any that have come before it, and we will stand by that record and the people of South Australia will judge us on that record, as opposed to what we have just heard from the member for West Torrens, which is nothing more than a stunt designed to smear members of this chamber without any base. Ms BEDFORD House of Assembly Ms BEDFORD: Point of clarification, sir: before we have the vote, can I just ask you if members can be asked questions themselves under 96(2)? If someone asked themselves a question about their travel allowance, is that going to be allowed or not? The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: I think, respectfully, I will just refer the member for Florey to what I said pretty clearly. I can go through the whole thing again but I stand by what I said earlier. Ms BEDFORD House of Assembly Ms BEDFORD: So no? The Speaker House of Assembly The SPEAKER: A member could make a personal explanation, member for Florey, but they cannot ask a question of themselves. The house divided on the motion: Ayes	19 Noes	26 Majority	7 AYES Bettison, Z.L. Bignell, L.W.K. Boyer, B.I. Brown, M.E. Close, S.E. Cook, N.F. Gee, J.P. Hildyard, K.A. Hughes, E.J. Koutsantonis, A. (teller) Malinauskas, P. Michaels, A. Mullighan, S.C. Odenwalder, L.K. Piccolo, A. Picton, C.J. Stinson, J.M. Szakacs, J.K. Wortley, D. NOES Basham, D.K.B. Bedford, F.E. Brock, G.G. Chapman, V.A. Cowdrey, M.J. Cregan, D. Duluk, S. Ellis, F.J. Gardner, J.A.W. Harvey, R.M. (teller) Knoll, S.K. Luethen, P. Marshall, S.S. McBride, N. Murray, S. Patterson, S.J.R. Pederick, A.S. Pisoni, D.G. Power, C. Sanderson, R. Speirs, D.J. Teague, J.B. Treloar, P.A. van Holst Pellekaan, D.C. Whetstone, T.J. Wingard, C.L. Motion thus negatived.