Estimates Committee A Fifty-Third Parliament, Second Session (53-2) 53 2 Parliament of South Australia House of Assembly published Estimates Vote South Australia Police, $790,854,000 Administered Items for South Australia Police, $189,000 South Australia Police, $790,854,000 Administered Items for South Australia Police, $189,000 Membership: Membership: Mr van Holst Pellekaan substituted for Mr Gardner. Mr Goldsworthy substituted for Ms Redmond. Minister: Minister: Hon. P. Malinauskas, Minister for Police, Minister for Correctional Services, Minister for Emergency Services, Minister for Road Safety. Departmental Advisers: Departmental Advisers: Cmmr G. Stevens, Commissioner of Police, South Australia Police. Mr D. Patriarca, Director, Business Services, South Australia Police. Mr I. Hartmann, Manager, Financial Management, South Australia Police. Mr S. Howard, Superintendent, South Australia Police. Mr C. Andrews, Manager, Business Support Services, South Australia Police. Mr L. Golding, Chief of Staff. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Welcome to committee A. The estimates committees are a relatively informal procedure and, as such, there is no need to stand to ask or answer questions. I understand the minister and the lead speaker of the opposition have agreed an approximate time for the consideration of the proposed payments, which will facilitate, or may not in this case as we are only doing police at this point, a change of advisers. You have agreed to two hours for police; is that correct? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Two hours, ma'am. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Two hours, madam, correct. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Changes to the committee membership will be notified as they occur. Members should ensure that the Chair is provided with a completed request to be discharged form. If the minister undertakes to supply information at a later date, it must be submitted to the committee's secretary by no later than Friday 28 October this year. This year, estimates committees responses will be published during the 15 November sitting week break in corrected Daily Hansard over a three-day period. I propose to allow both the minister and the lead speaker of the opposition to make an opening statement of about 10 minutes each should they wish. There will be a flexible approach to giving the call for asking questions, based on about three questions per member alternating each side. Supplementary questions will be the exception rather than the rule. A member who is not part of the committee may ask a question at the discretion of the Chair. Questions must be based on lines of expenditure in the budget papers and must be identifiable or referenced at the beginning of each question, and we do ask members for cooperation in that matter. Members unable to complete their questions during the proceedings may submit them as questions on notice for inclusion in the assembly Notice Paper. There is no formal facility for the tabling of documents before the committee; however, documents can be supplied to the Chair for distribution to the committee. The incorporation of material in Hansard is permitted on the same basis as applies in the house, that is, that it is purely statistical and limited to one page in length. All questions are to be directed to the minister and not his assistants or advisers. The minister may refer questions to advisers for a response if he wishes. During the committee's examination, television cameras will be permitted to film from both the northern and southern galleries. I do ask for noise to be kept to a minimum. I declare the proposed payments open for examination and refer members to Agency Statements Volume 3, or is that Volume 4? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Budget Paper 4, Volume 3. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: I call on the minister to make an opening statement, if he wishes, and then to introduce his advisers. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me start by introducing those people who are here today to be able to advise me and assist. Obviously, on my right we have the Commissioner of Police in South Australia, Mr Grant Stevens; on my left, Mr Denis Patriarca, Director of Business Services from SAPOL; and on his left is Mr Ian Hartmann, Manager, Financial Management, from SAPOL. Behind me on the right is Mr Chris Andrews, Manager, Business Services Support, SAPOL; on his left is Mr Steve Howard, Superintendent from the executive support branch, SAPOL; and on his left is Mr Liam Golding, my Chief of Staff. It has been almost 200 days since I was presented with the opportunity and, indeed, great honour of serving the South Australian community as cabinet minister for the community safety portfolio. Today is obviously also the first opportunity I have had to have the pleasure of parliamentary estimates, and I have been wholeheartedly looking forward to it. The first six months have been a steep learning curve as I have familiarised myself with a number of agencies and all the great work done by each of them. One of the first challenges I faced upon being entrusted with the police portfolio was the important matter of how changes to the Return to Work Act affect police officers. That matter was dealt with within the first month and only reinforced my understanding of the special and important role played by SAPOL in the service of the South Australian community. Our police have a critical role in the service of our state. I believe our police force is acutely aware of the importance of the key role they play and the positive influence they can have on the everyday lives of so many people throughout South Australia. The pride our police take in their service to our community has been evident as I have visited officers across the state, from Leigh Creek to Port Adelaide to Mount Gambier. The enthusiasm and expectation of a fulfilling career and life as a sworn police officer have been evident in the 79 cadets that I have had the privilege to witness graduate at the redeveloped police academy since I became minister. Police work prevents crime. It is the work of our dedicated police officers that makes our community safer. This work has underpinned the continued reductions in the crime rate over the past decade. Victim reported crime is down by more than 38 per cent over the last decade and, as a result, last year there were almost 70,000 fewer crimes against property compared with 2004-05. This equates to 1,342 fewer crimes every week last year compared with a decade ago. That is thousands of fewer victims, and that is what law enforcement is all about—making our community safer and meaning fewer people have to go through the trauma of being the victim of a crime. The government is committing to maintain our place as one of the safest cities in the world, and one of the safest states in the world, and to continue our work to improve our standing. Our police force is tasked with upholding the law and order and preserving community order. In my short time as minister I have asked myself what the government and I can do to help SAPOL achieve these goals so that all South Australians feel safe and are secure in their communities. I believe that the answer is to provide tangible support that can help front-line officers as they go about their important duty. It is the provision of support in the form of our continued recruitment of front-line officers so we will have more police on the beat than ever before; it is providing the highest police budget in SAPOL's history, which will continue to grow in real terms over the forward estimates; and it is the provision of better equipment over a number of years. We have worked with SAPOL to deliver high-tech equipment like tasers, tablets, fingerprint scanners and body-worn video. Just this morning, I joined NEC and SAPOL to announce the latest addition to this list, with facial recognition software to become operational in the very near future. The government has continued to support in terms of technology and sworn officer positions our police force as one of the most modern, dynamic and effective police forces in the nation. We are working to ensure SAPOL is best positioned to deal with and respond to the challenge of the 21^st century and the new crimes and threats of our age. Part of that challenge is the manner in which SAPOL responds to the changes in our society. SAPOL is always striving for continuous improvement and finding new ways to counter the threats to the safety and security we all cherish. The government will seek to actively work with SAPOL to ensure they have the capacity to respond to emerging threats with swift and accurate countermeasures. This presents a challenge in that it requires the management of change. I will continue to look for ways police can have long-term confidence in the levels of service in the community because of the way this supports long-term confidence in the police. In closing, I would like to place on the record my thanks to all SAPOL's officers, who are the front-line responders to crime in our state, and to the police commissioner, who two weeks ago celebrated his first anniversary in the job; to SAPOL senior management; and to the Police Association for their service, leadership and advice in my first six months as police minister. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I am comfortable that SAPOL, from the bottom all the way through to the top of the organisation, understands how supportive and appreciative I am of the work that they do in crime prevention across this state and, of course, the opposition is as well. I thank them for that, and I am happy to get on with some questions. Minister, my first question relates to page 123. What I am looking for here are some specific numbers with regard to various categories of personnel within SAPOL. The first question is: how many sworn officers (FTEs) were there on 1 July 2015, 1 July 2016, and are predicted to be there on 1 July at the end of each financial year in the forward estimates? I will be asking the same question of a range of different categories as well, if that helps you prepare your notes. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Thanks for your question. There are a few numbers I have embedded in my memory, but I just want to take a moment to ensure complete accuracy. I think the first year you referred to was 2015-16. The total number of sworn— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Sorry, minister, the first year was 1 July 2015, which is actually the 2014-15 year. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: In 2014-15, the budgeted amount for sworn was 4,445 plus 151 cadets, for a total of 4,596 sworn and cadet FTEs. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When you say 'budgeted', I am looking for the exact number. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am just about to give you that. In terms of the actual number, at the end of the 2014-15 financial year that number was 4,450.4 sworn plus 113 cadets, for a total of 4,563.4. For the year 2015-16, which was the following year you asked for, I will give you both the budgeted number and the actual, for the sake of thoroughness. Again, the sworn number was 4,439.1. There were 145 cadets, then the FTE actual, sworn, was 4,437.3 and 155 cadets, for a total of 4,592.3. I think the next year you were talking about was the forecast for 2016-17; is that right? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Yes, for 1 July 2017, 2018 and 2019. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: This figure is 2016-17. It is a 30 June figure— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: To complete that year, yes. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes. Again, the total sworn number, including cadets, is 4,634.1. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How many of them would be cadets? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: 154. Did you want the next year as well? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Yes, please. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: 4,458 plus 166 cadets, for a total of 4,660.1. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: And then the last year of the forward estimates, thanks. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: There are two additional years: there is 2018-19 and 2019- 20 over the forward estimates. For 2018-19, that number goes up again to 4,685.1 and a total number of 165 cadets. In the final year of forward estimates the number is 4749.1, and that includes 204 cadets. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: In those same years, how many of those sworn officers were non-active? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might just answer that question. Those figures I just provided to you, I am advised, include only actives. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How many inactive, sworn officers on top of that? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: On top of that? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: On top of that. If it helps your advisers prepare, I am looking for exactly the same thing for community constables and transit police as well. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: At 30 June 2016, the number of inactives, I am advised, was 90—that is FTEs. Regarding your question about transit police— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: And the following years? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that we do not have those numbers for that period. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: You do not have them? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Correct; that is what I am advised. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So you do not have it for 30 June 2016? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: That is 30 June 2016, that figure. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So there are no budgets or estimates for those for the forward years? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that SAPOL make substantial efforts to make reasonable predictions about attrition. They are able to make forecasts with some confidence about retirement and attrition but not in respect of inactives. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Community constables and transit police, please. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: What about them? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: It is the same question—the same figures for the same times. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: To get some clarity about your question, transit police are part of those ordinary police numbers. They form a component of that. Are you trying to ascertain the number of people within the normal SAPOL contingent who are transit police? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Correct, yes. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I think the best way to answer your question, I am advised, is by making clear exactly what the current commitment and structure are within SAPOL regarding transit police. I am happy to step you through those numbers. They are not necessarily specifically forecast into the future, but this more or less reflects the commitment. Currently, there is one chief inspector, one senior sergeant first class, one sergeant, an ASO3. The intelligence section is allocated to the area of one sergeant, three field intelligence officers, seven sergeants in the response team, along with 79 other ranks. In the crime prevention section, there is also one sergeant and two constables, so that brings it to a total of 96 sworn plus an ASO3. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: You are saying that that would be your intention to keep that model running into years into the future. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might ask the police commissioner to answer that. It is up to the police commissioner to determine how he allocates it. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: At this point in time, there are no proposed reviews of the structure or establishment of the passenger transport safety branch, so for the foreseeable future we would imagine it would remain the same. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: On the same page, minister, this is a far more general question. I just needed to get some of those numbers for future reference. Under the broader heading of workforce summary, minister, do you agree with former commissioner Burns who told parliament's Budget and Finance Committee that judging the number of police officers per capita of state population, and using that as of comparison between states, is not an effective way to judge the value of the police force or the effectiveness of the police force because different police forces have different tasks in different states? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am not familiar with the former commissioner's remarks to which you refer. That said, inevitably when you are comparing across jurisdictions, there are complexities. The best efforts, though, are made through the RoGS process. On that accepted measure, South Australia performs incredibly well in comparison to other jurisdictions on the number of sworn active police officers on a per capita basis, and that is certainly something the government is very proud of. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: On the same page, how many roles are proposed under the government's organisational review that is currently being undertaken by sworn officers, will be undertaken by non-sworn officers or other staff? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I just point out one remark that you made in the context of your question in terms of this being the government's organisational review, I do not think that is quite an accurate reflection of what is the case. It is important to remember that the organisational review, which SAPOL is undertaking at the moment, is very much an effort led by the police commissioner. He does that, of course, with the government's complete support. I think it is important that all agencies within government are reviewing themselves to ensure that they are delivering their service as efficiently as possible, notwithstanding the fact that resources going to SAPOL are increasing. I applaud the police commissioner's efforts to make sure that despite increasing resources he is ensuring that those are applied as efficiently and effectively as possible. Having said that, what I can say is that the organisational review effort is ongoing that the police commissioner is taking up. I am advised that there have been a number of roles that have been identified as best being performed by civilians so as to free more resources for officers to perform duties on the front line. The two best examples of that are in the custody management section, where 42 people fit into that category, and seven in the intelligence section. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When will the review be complete, and when do you plan for it to be implemented? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: In light of the fact that the review is very much an organisational operational effort on behalf of the police commissioner, I might invite the police commissioner to respond to that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: As to the organisational review, the main body of work has essentially concluded in terms of developing of concepts and consultation both internally and externally to SAPOL. I am confident that we will be making announcements about the final model to be implemented in the coming days or weeks. It is also my intention that implementation of that model would start almost immediately, but it will be a staged implementation based on a range of activities that need to occur so we can properly implement what is being proposed. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: What would be the time line to finish that staged implementation? Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: The significant part of the reform program is known as the district policing model, where we are proposing to transition from local service areas to districts. It is my anticipation that we would aim to transition from one model to another, in that sense, around about September/October 2017. There is substantial work to be done between now and then in terms of IT, HR systems, human resource movements that need to occur to make that move as effective as possible. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thanks, Commissioner. Minister, there has been significant public debate, as you would be aware, with regard to this review and whether the questions that are discussed within SAPOL, within the media, within government and within opposition around whether it is budgetary constraint that is leading to the review, whether the review is being done to meet a budgetary target or whether, if there was no fiscal constraint, this review would be undertaken anyway to provide the best policing possible. Can you comment on that, please? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: The first thing is, obviously that is a fair question and entirely appropriate. I think the best way to answer it is by pointing out exactly what is occurring to SAPOL's budget, and has for some time. The state government's commitment to SAPOL's budget, I think, is evidenced by the numbers within themselves. We have seen almost a doubling of SAPOL's budget since coming to office. As I mentioned earlier, in this particular state budget SAPOL's budget is the highest number in the state's history and, of course, is forecast to grow over the life of the forward estimates, not just in nominal terms but, I think importantly, in real terms. So, I do not think there can be any doubt that, in light of increasing resources going towards SAPOL, it is difficult to see how this is a budget issue. Regarding the police commissioner's effort, I am very much persuaded by the police commissioner's comments and briefs to me that at the heart of this organisational reform effort is a desire for SAPOL to be looking to ways that it can continue to improve the level of service delivery to the state in terms of both preventing crime in the first place but also ensuring that those people who do commit crimes are held to account accordingly. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Moving to a different book, Budget Paper 5, Budget Measures Statement, page 68, referring to the Recruit 300 target. What was the total number of sworn officers when the original Recruit 300 promise was made back in 2010? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Sorry, could you say that again? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: What was the total number of sworn officers when the original Recruit 300 (or Recruit 313, as it was then) promise was made back in 2010? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that the budgeted number was: total police, including cadets, 4,486 in June 2010 Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: A budgeted number or an actual number from 2010? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised it is the budgeted number. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: What was the actual number? Again, if that helps, the next thing I will ask is: how many without cadets, or how many cadets are included in the total, whichever— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am afraid that in both those instances those questions will have to be taken on notice. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I am happy for you to do that. How many sworn officers, excluding cadets, have been recruited above attrition each year since then? You might need to take that on notice, too, if the first number is not available, unless you have a recruitment paper there. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: We do have some numbers here which may be of assistance. In the year 2011-12, the number I am advised that were recruited over and above attrition was 129. In 2013-14, it was 50; in 2014-15, it was 20; and then, in 2015-16, it was 20. I can also outline what is forecast to occur, for the sake of clarity, over the forward estimates if that is of use: 10 in this financial year, 10 in the next, 10 in 2018-19 and then 64 in 2019-20. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When did you first become aware that the Recruit 300 commitment would not be achieved on time? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I was never, to the best of my recollection, advised that the Recruit 313 was not going to be met. On the contrary, I have been consistently advised that SAPOL did have strategies available to it to see that it could be met and, of course, if you would like me to go into a bit more detail about that, I am happy to. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Are you saying it was SAPOL's or the commissioner's decision not to fulfil the government's promise? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No. If I can step you through the decision, I assume you are leading up to the question regarding the government's recent policy announcement in respect of how it would arrive at 313. I am happy to get straight into it, if you like. Upon taking over as Minister for Police, it will not surprise you that I sought as much information from the police commissioner as I possibly could regarding a whole range of issues, and of course 313 being a key commitment of the government that was high on the priority list. I was advised that SAPOL were in a position to honour the revised government commitment of 313 in the 2018 calendar year but, in order to do that, SAPOL would have to employ a strategy of active recruitment overseas, most likely to be in the form of recruitment from the United Kingdom that SAPOL had engaged in previously in order to be able to boost numbers. Then, of course, as has been discussed publicly, that led to a discussion between both the police commissioner and me. The police commissioner, in his wisdom, in conjunction with me, arrived at the conclusion that it would be better to avoid that strategy, particularly in the context of the current employment environment in South Australia, and instead delay the time line by two years in order to facilitate or maximise the opportunity for South Australians to have the first opportunity to serve in the South Australian police force. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Given that, why was it that the commissioner told the Budget and Finance Committee approximately six months ago that he would require an additional $8 million to his budget to fulfil the revised recruiting promise on time, as it was then? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am familiar with the commissioner's remarks in Budget and Finance. What I would say is that quite simply the commissioner was doing his duty in answering the question as accurately as he could about what the cost was of recruitment. That does not in any way suggest that the government was not on track to honour the policy, as I mentioned. Rather, I think the recent budget's decision to allocate those funds accordingly in order to meet our target demonstrates the government's commitment to it. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How many police officers have been recruited from overseas since 2010-11? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: In terms of specific numbers, we do not have those at hand, but I am advised by the police commissioner that to the best of his recollection the last time active overseas recruitment occurred was three to four years ago in 2012. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Would you take that on notice to provide those figures? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Sure. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thank you. Out of all of that, it seems that approximately six months ago the commissioner said—and I do not doubt that he meant it—that he would require an additional $8 million in his budget to fulfil the promise by 2018. As it has turned out, the government has put an extra $20 million into the budget to fulfil the promise by 2020, so spending more money to recruit later, given the supporting reason that the government did not want to recruit from overseas, but the government has not been recruiting from overseas anyway. The other supporting reason was that the government wants to support and hire South Australians, which of course I fully support, but why wasn't that happening anyway? I just cannot see the logic in this delay. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Let me explain a few things to you regarding your remarks. The first thing is that the allocation of the additional funds to which you refer are not entirely about 313. Of course, a significant component of it refers to the cost of recruitment, consistent with the police commissioner's remarks in Budget and Finance. The reason for the increase in SAPOL's budget announced in the budget is because some of those costs speak to other investments that the government is making in SAPOL, including the organisational reform effort around civilianisation. Paying SAPOL additional funds in order to be able to employ civilians to perform functions within SAPOL that were otherwise done by sworn officers gives the police commissioner the flexibility and the ability to redeploy those sworn officers to front-line roles, which of course enhances community safety. Regarding your remarks around overseas recruitment, of course I can test the fact that there has not been overseas recruitment because of course there has. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: In the last three years? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: We would acknowledge as a government that there are a not insignificant number of people employed within SAPOL who are sworn officers who have been recruited overseas doing an outstanding job. They are committed employees of SAPOL serving South Australia well, so active recruitment from overseas has occurred in the past in order to be able to meet demand. In order to be able to reach the target by 2018, that tactic would have to be redeployed and re-engaged by SAPOL in order to be able to meet that commitment. A conscious policy decision was made, one that of course the government wholeheartedly supports, that it is better to delay a time line by two years in order to maximise the chance of South Australians getting a job within SAPOL. I would contend that any committed South Australian who has the capacity to influence decision-making so as to maximise the chance of a South Australian getting a job—a good job, a well-paid job like those that exist within SAPOL—is an absolute no-brainer. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: It is. What is not a no-brainer is why it was delayed. You said that there had been no overseas recruiting for the last three years. Three years ago is also when recruitment in general—which presumably was overwhelmingly South Australians, and there would have been a few interstaters as well—slowed down significantly, based on the numbers that you provided before. Why did the government (or SAPOL) slow down their recruiting effort so significantly three years ago and yet keep saying that the promise was going to be fulfilled? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have to say I am not too sure about the language of 'slowing down' recruiting. You have to remember that it is not as though SAPOL paused recruitment during that period. There were very significant numbers of cadets that were coming through the academy. In fact, I may have referred to some of those numbers earlier, or taken a question on notice to that effect. The suggestion that SAPOL was not actively recruiting during that period would not be a reflection of the facts. To come back to your point generally, I think I have outlined rather thoroughly and transparently one of the questions that was before myself and the police commissioner. I genuinely believe the police commissioner and I have made the right decision to maximise the chances of South Australians getting a job within SAPOL. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Just to make it really clear why I asked you that, and to repeat the numbers you gave to me, four years ago recruitment of sworn officers above attrition was 129; three years ago, 50; two years ago, 20; and one year ago, 20. So, there is a significant decline in recruitment of non-overseas sworn officers. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I do not have at hand the numbers in respect to the number of people that were occurring through attrition that year. You need to look at these recruitment numbers in the context of a whole range of variables, attrition being one of them. You also have to look at it in the context of applicants. I think one of the things that is very important in respect to SAPOL, and a policy position which I wholeheartedly applaud, is SAPOL's undying commitment to making sure that people who are coming into the organisation meet the relevant standards. SAPOL can presumably do everything they can to maximise the chances of the number of people coming in the door, but we always want to make sure that SAPOL is preserving its standards by ensuring that all people it employs cut the mustard. To look at figures in isolation without looking at their broader context can be somewhat misleading. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I am not misleading anybody, minister. I am not looking at them in isolation. They are the— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, I am not suggesting you are; I am just saying that sometimes the figures— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: They are the figures that you provided, and attrition and the range of other issues that you mentioned were also all wrapped up in the Recruit 300 target. It was very clearly a commitment to recruit 300 officers plus the 13 transit officers over and above attrition, so I cannot accept that differing levels of attrition and a whole range of other things out of control are a reason for not having fulfilled the commitment. Why does PASA so strongly object to the revised commitment? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: You will have to ask PASA that. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: You do not know? They have not told you? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: You are asking me what PASA thinks. I am not here to speak on behalf of PASA. PASA are an independent organisation of government. They are very ably led by committed trade union officials. If you want to ask what they think, I would encourage you to ask them. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Do you have a view on the PASA survey that was done which indicated that 90 per cent of serving officers—and I assume this would be serving officers who were surveyed—believe that the restructure that is happening at the moment is being done for budgetary purposes rather than for policing improvement purposes? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I would simply encourage police officers—fine men and women and committed South Australians—to take heed of the remarks that have been made by the police commissioner in terms of his commitment to improving service to the community being a motivating factor for the reform effort. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, will any civilian roles be rolled into the Recruit 300 target? The reason for asking is because initially, in the commitment made in 2010 that by 2014 the additional 300 officers over and above attrition would be recruited, it was very clear at the time that the number excluded cadets. In addition to the time line being pushed out, I think about two years ago it was changed so that it included cadets. Can you give the committee a guarantee that civilians or non-sworn officers will not become part of the recruiting target? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that there is no intention for that to be the case, and that is certainly not the intention of government. In fact, one of the reasons the government committed the additional funds in the way we did in the state budget was very much to honour the original intent of the Recruit 313 election commitment. I am not aware of any intent to depart from that. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: There would be an increase in the number of civilians working within SAPOL plus this fulfilment of the Recruit 300 sworn officers on top of that? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: That is a good question, and I am glad you asked it. Yes, as mentioned earlier, the additional funds that were committed to SAPOL do more than just seek to give the commissioner the ability to honour the 313 target. It also was about giving additional funds to SAPOL so that they could employ civilians in addition to what was already the case so that they can then redeploy sworn police officers who are otherwise performing those roles into other more traditional policing duties. This speaks to more than just additional resources. It speaks to making sure that we are using resources as efficiently and productively as we reasonably can be. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: With regard to the use of resources, it was foreshadowed that a youth and culturally diverse recruitment program of 80 officers would take place. Has that occurred? It was a government/SAPOL commitment. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Regarding the internal operations in order to be able to meet those objectives, I might invite the police commissioner to respond. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Thank you. We introduced a culturally and linguistically diverse and youth recruitment strategy about 18 months ago, I believe—18 months to two years ago—which saw us extend our recruit training program from about six months to 12 months. The purpose of that was to ensure that we could provide the level of training required to those two particular groups to satisfy the standards we have at graduation. We do have a program in place where we are actively recruiting in those two sectors to ensure that we honour that commitment. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Have the 80 officers of that description been recruited? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Again, I might invite the police commissioner to report on that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Whilst we have a target of 80, we are currently sitting at 64 youth and culturally and linguistically diverse applicants for the financial year. There are some challenges in identifying suitable applicants in these two cohorts, but we are working aggressively to achieve that target. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thanks, commissioner. My next question is with regard to some new areas. There was to be a new internet child exploitation team, a boost to the Australian national child officer register, a new neighbourhood police team for Holden Hill, and a new vulnerable victims unit to help those with communication and intellectual disabilities. All those very positive and worthy new areas of work were going to be entered into at the same time as the recruitment of the additional net 300 officers was to take place. Given that the 300 has not happened, has that impacted on those new areas of work? Have those new areas happened and officers have had to be moved out of other areas, or have those things been delayed also? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that all those areas you refer to have been established and resources allocated towards them. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: In 2013-14, SAPOL was considering trialling a process to use law graduates instead of police prosecutors. Was this ever implemented? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I believe it has been, yes, and with some success I have been informed. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: And likely to continue? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: The trial is still ongoing, I understand. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When will the trial be finished? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: There is a review underway but, as I foreshadowed, I am advised that thus far it looks like it has been a successful strategy, but it would be unwise to comment without awaiting the outcome of that review SAPOL is conducting internally. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: That was the question: when will that happen? When does the trial finish and when is the assessment? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: The trial is currently still underway, but we are evaluating it at this point, so I am hopeful that we will have some specifics around the outcomes of that trial within the next month or so. I do not have a specific time frame. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Similarly, there was to be a trial in regional areas, which I think actually did happen, where civilians were being used as police prosecutors. How is that going and is there any intention to expand that into the metro areas? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Again, being an operational question, I might invite the police commissioner to answer. Cmmr STEVENS: The use of civilian prosecutors in regional areas has been quite successful. Those people have been employed to fill long-term vacancies or extended absences of sworn officers. At this point, I would suggest it has proven to be a strategy that we would look to take advantage of going forward to ensure that we maintain the level of service delivery in regional areas that are expected of SAPOL. Those positions are also being evaluated as part of the overall evaluation of the use of civilian prosecutors. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I notice that I have swapped back to the original book and the original page. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: We noticed that and we thought we would let you go. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: It will not really change anything. Moving on to cadets, what is the success rate of cadets becoming sworn officers? Has that improved or changed at all with the program going from 29 to 52 weeks? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that through a very thorough recruitment process the level of attrition from the cadets is very low so, by and large, once cadets enter the cadet course they have a high level of probability of completing that cadet course. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: High as in 80 or nearly 100 per cent? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: We do not have the exact numbers of attrition for cadets, but anecdotally I suggest it would be in the high 90 per cent that would be completing our program. We have a very low attrition rate. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thanks, commissioner. Minister, my next question is in regard to the 50 per cent female recruitment target. Have more women been applying to become police officers and enter the academy? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Significant numbers, or just a little bit? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have asked SAPOL, through the police commissioner, for a briefing in respect of these numbers because I think it is an area in which the government takes an interest. It is a significant reform going on within SAPOL, and I think it has a lot of policy merit. Without giving you a specific number, I can certainly say that the last brief I read on this (which was a few weeks ago) advised that there was a significant increase in the number of female applicants to SAPOL. I think that very much can be attributed to the policy decision taken by the police commissioner. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: That is great. Could you take it on notice just to confirm— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: If you are after specific numbers, I am certainly happy to take that on notice. I think you will see that those numbers will reflect the remarks I have just made. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When you provide those figures, would you please make it very clear whether they are first-time applicants, or second or third-time applicants, because I know a lot of people, men and women— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Again, we will take that on notice. Obviously, I have to look at whether or not that is possible. I am happy to take it on notice. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: That would be good. The reason I am asking for that is that I know it happens a lot that some people who apply to get into the academy, to get into SAPOL, who are unsuccessful might apply once, twice, or three times. Some people go through the police security service and find that a useful pathway. I have a good friend who did exactly that. I would like to have that separated out in the numbers, as you have said you will do. The reason for pursuing this is that it has also been put to me that women who applied before, unsuccessfully, and are now reapplying post the announcement of the fifty-fifty recruit program are finding it easier to get in. I am not placing a judgement on that at all, but it has been put to me that women who were rejected—presumably for all the right reasons before—are now being accepted. That is the reason for asking whether or not there is substance to that. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might start by answering that and then let the commissioner go into a bit more detail. At a ministerial level, on more than one occasion I have asked questions of the police commissioner regarding methodology and standards in terms of intake, not so much in the context of the gender recruitment issue but just as a recruitment strategy generally, particularly considering that the government has a policy of increasing the number of people coming into SAPOL. I have to say that the commissioner has reassured me, and certainly satisfied me, that the only people who are getting into SAPOL are those people who meet the standards. I think that is an important principle and one that the community at large can have a lot of confidence in, but I might invite the police commissioner to add to that. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: Thank you minister, and can I just clarify that, in regard to the commitment to take away a question on notice about the number of applicants, or the increase in the number, I can say that the ratio of female applicants has increased from 70 per cent male and 30 per cent female to 58 per cent male and 42 per cent female as a result of the strategy that has been put in place. I can also say with absolute certainty that there has been no reduction in standards that are applicable to women or any particular gender. We have introduced a range of different strategies, which includes recontacting female applicants who have shown an interest in SAPOL previously but who have not been successful. We have introduced a policy decision where a person who has tertiary qualifications is no longer required to submit to our numeracy and literacy testing, which makes it easier for people to move into SAPOL as a recruit. We have reviewed our fitness testing regime and adopted a methodology which has been endorsed by the Australian and New Zealand Police Advisory Agency, which looks at functional fitness that is related to the activities of a general duties police officer. This testing regime probably provides a perception that more accurately identifies with the physical requirements of joining the police service. Can I also stress that there has been no reduction in standards and that only those people who meet SAPOL's standards through the recruit application process are offered a position on a recruit course. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might just add one thing to that. I am not suggesting that this has occurred here at all, and I preface my remarks by saying that this is in no way a criticism, but I think it is important that as a community we think very carefully about suggestions that that may be the case. We know for a fact that women who are working within SAPOL are doing an outstanding job. I think it is important to remind ourselves that women are more than capable, often in many, many instances even more capable than men at performing these duties. That is why I think this policy can be implemented by SAPOL in such a way that South Australians can be confident that its implementation will only enhance SAPOL's capacity, rather than the opposite. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I want to go back to something in the commissioner's answer. Why would having to undergo a literacy and numeracy test deter tertiary-qualified applicants from applying? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: The police commissioner might respond to that. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: The decision was taken to allow people with a tertiary qualification to bypass the literacy and numeracy testing process simply to make it as easy as possible for people with the appropriate skills and attributes to participate in that application process and remove one barrier that does not need to be there, as far as we are able to see. History has shown us that people who have tertiary qualifications are readily able to meet that academic threshold that we set for a police applicant or recruit. The decision was taken simply to step away from one barrier, one obstacle, that each person who was seeking to join SAPOL had to complete. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might add that I think it is a fair assumption that if someone has a tertiary-level qualification they are both literate and numerate. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I agree, and that is why I could not see why it would be a deterrent to them to have to do it. The next question, minister, is: does that create a deterrent for the person without a tertiary qualification, who then might feel that they have to take an extra test to prove that they can read and write and have numeracy skills? Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: Historically, we have conducted the literacy and numeracy test, and this provides an avenue for people who are not able to demonstrate through any other qualification that they have the necessary skills to demonstrate those skills as a part of the selection process. That is why we continue to offer it. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Would completing secondary school be adequate? Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: We have actually examined whether a person's ATAR score would be evidence of sufficient achievement to demonstrate that capability. We have not fallen on a position in relation to that yet. We considered that we would take it one step at a time with tertiary qualifications. We are still doing some further work on whether or not we would consider a person's ATAR score. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: For the Chair, I am moving to page 127, with regard to police station operating hours and that sort of stuff. Minister, given that the number of operational stations is the same for 2015-16 and 2016-17 (at 129, according to the Budget Papers), are there stations that are predicted, expected or planned to close post 2016-17? The budget figures show only those two years. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Decisions regarding police station hours and the operation of police stations, as you probably well know, is a decision that is entirely within the purview of the police commissioner. The police commissioner has announced that he is undertaking a review of the police station front desk administrative hours currently. That review is not completely finalised as yet, so I am not in a position to be able to answer that at the minute. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When will it be finalised? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that SAPOL intends to make an announcement publicly in the coming weeks. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: The discussion so far about this review has been about metropolitan Adelaide only. Is the review that would be announced in coming weeks for metropolitan areas only or does it include the country as well? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have been advised it is specifically with respect to metropolitan police stations and not regional police stations. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Will there be a regional review after the metro one is finished? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: The police commissioner has foreshadowed in respect of his organisational review that the first step is to concentrate on policing generally within metropolitan areas. That is not just in respect of police station hours, but it also refers to the review regarding the district police model and the like. The police commissioner has advised the government that once the whole look has been completed in respect of metropolitan areas, then it is likely that he will undertake a similar exercise in regional South Australia. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How is SAPOL and/or the government going about getting feedback from the public included in this review process? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer this. You are talking about the police station hours review? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Yes. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes, sure. I might invite the police commissioner to answer this in light of the fact that it is the police commissioner's decision and his review. What I would just say from my perspective as the Minister for Police is that I have been obviously actively engaged with the police commissioner regarding this subject to ensure and satisfy myself that the police commissioner is taking into account the views of the South Australian public. I might allow him to speak to what he has done to ensure that there is a process for that to occur. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: As part of our consultation process, we sought feedback from interested stakeholders which included local government associations and local MPs, and we have also placed in The Advertiser and the Messenger newspapers an invitation for members of the community to make contact directly with SAPOL to provide their feedback or views in relation to police station front counter opening hours. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Once the review is completed and the changes are made, how will success or failure be judged? How will it be evaluated post-implementation? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Again, being part of the police commissioner's review, I might invite the police commissioner to respond to that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: As with any review that is undertaken in SAPOL, we will follow up with an evaluation of the impact of the changes that we make. We will be monitoring activity in and around those police stations that are impacted by change and also monitoring community feedback and concern in relation to those changes. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Community feedback, the public will have an opportunity to share their views again? Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: It may not be the case that we would actually specifically seek responses in an advertised way, but we will certainly be monitoring stakeholder views and issues and also people who have a need to contact or interact with police station services. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, when will the new Henley Beach Police Station be completed and fully operational? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that it will be during September. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: With regard to the proposed reduction in operating hours, what was the community feedback on that change? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I do not think we quite have to hand the specific number of applications. I know the local MP, the member for Colton, made a submission to that review. What I would say is that, regardless, I think it is important to keep in mind that the Henley Beach Police Station, I am advised, as will most police stations, be remaining a 24-hour a day, seven-day a week operation, 365 days of the year, with police moving to and from the police station as a patrol base. It is important for the committee to understand that the police commissioner's review of police station hours is specifically and only looking at front desk administrative hours, as distinct from the functioning of the police station; they will remain 24/7 operations. I am advised, (just to give you a bit of an insight) by the police commissioner that in total there were 38 responses received from the community at large to SAPOL's call for submissions. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Specifically for Henley Beach? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, that is in total. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Given that you do not have it to hand, would you take on notice and come back with the community feedback about the reduction in hours at the new Henley Beach station? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: You are specifically interested in Henley Beach? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Yes, minister. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes, we can take that on notice. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: The member for Kavel would like to ask a question. Mr GOLDSWORTHY House of Assembly Mr GOLDSWORTHY: Going along the same line of questions from the member for Stuart. I wonder, minister, have you received any community feedback concerning the reduction of hours of the Golden Grove Police Station? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that that number of 38— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Is this about Henley Beach? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes, back to the answer to the Henley Beach question. I want to come back to that and correct the record. I have been advised by the police commissioner that that number of 38 refers to a previous review of police station hours conducted by the former commissioner. The number of submissions from members of the public, I am advised, was three. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: For the current review? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: For the current review. In respect to— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So, the member for Colton? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, that is members of the public. Your question was regarding Golden Grove. Golden Grove fits in the category of all other police stations. The review process and the call for submissions was consistent with what the police commissioner outlined earlier. Mr GOLDSWORTHY House of Assembly Mr GOLDSWORTHY: I understand that, minister, but I asked specifically: had you received any feedback about the reduction of the hours of the Golden Grove Police Station? Can you be specific in relation to any feedback you received? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Are you talking about from the public or are you talking about from passionate local MPs who serve their constituency incredibly well? Mr GOLDSWORTHY House of Assembly Mr GOLDSWORTHY: Anyone, minister. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Sorry, but I do not have a breakdown of which stations received which submissions, particularly in regard to the ones from members of the public. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: On this topic, what about from passionate local MPs in regard to the Golden Grove Police Station? The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: What is your interest in Golden Grove? Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: No, the minister did not answer it. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I just do not have to hand every single submission that was made. I can assure the member that a number of MPs made submissions. I am certainly aware of the passions of the local MP regarding Golden Grove, and she regularly makes representations to me, rest assured. An honourable member interjecting: The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: And the member for Florey and every other Labor MP in parliament. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Yes, do not start naming people. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I should just mention, in respect of Golden Grove, if I may, since there have been a couple of lines of inquiry, that Golden Grove fits into the same category as Henley Beach and, indeed, basically every other police station. Golden Grove will be remaining, I am advised, as a 24-hour-a day, seven-day-a week, 365-day-a-year patrol base. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thank you, minister. I want to move on to page 132 and pursue the topic of drug diversions. Can you explain why drug diversions have increased by 28 per cent from last year to this year? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might just give the police commissioner a moment to familiarise himself with those references. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: About seven lines from the bottom of that page. An honourable member interjecting: Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Do not let her distract you, minister. Members interjecting: The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Order! The minister has the call. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: As it is an operational question, I might invite the police commissioner to answer. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: Thank you, minister. The indicator that has been referred to is a proactive measure of police activity, so it is dictated in part by the number of interactions police have with people who are found in possession of drugs, but it is also an indicator of the increase of a prevention-first approach in dealing with the issue of illicit drugs and allocating resources that are charged with the responsibility of patrolling in areas where we believe there may be relevant activity and taking action as appropriate. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thank you, commissioner. Minister, of the 7,132 people who participated in the program in the 2015-16 year, how many participated for the first time? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that that information is not to hand and would need to be taken on notice. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I will ask you some more questions then, just get them on the record, and you might be able to take them on notice as well. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: To the extent that we have the information on hand, I am sure the police commissioner would be happy to advise you of it; if it gets quite specific, I think— Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: The first question is: how many of those 7,132 participated for the first time? Secondly, how many participants had been referred to the program one or more previous times, two or more previous times, three or more previous times, or four or more previous times? The last question is: what was the most number of times that a person had been referred to that diversion program? I am happy if you want to take all those on notice. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Yes, I think some of those questions are rather specific in nature and, for the sake of accuracy, it is best to take them on notice. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Yes, that would be good. Minister, has SAPOL made any recommendations to the government about improving the diversion program; if so, what were they? What was the government's response to those suggestions? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Neither the police commissioner nor I can recall any specific examples of where that is the case. Should that not be an accurate reflection of what is the case, the police commissioner has advised that he will inform me accordingly. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So you have not discussed together the proposal from the opposition to limit the number of diversions to a maximum of three before the person must face a court? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, we have not discussed that. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: The member for Davenport has some questions. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: Minister, just sticking with this drug diversion, has there been any work done on why we have seen such a big increase in diversions? Is it because there is greater police enforcement in this matter? Are we seeing an increasing number of offenders and more people using drugs in the community? What is behind such an increase that we have seen this year? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Being an operational-oriented question, I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Thank you, minister. As I pointed out before, we dedicate resources to illicit drug enforcement, and that resource is deployed based on intelligence to ensure we are operating in the correct areas. I think it is also fair to say that there is an increased incidence of the presence of illicit substances within the community, and those numbers would reflect those occasions when police officers are detecting individuals who are in possession of small quantities of illicit substances. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: Can we move to page 137, please, the driver screening tests. This is in regard to the activity statement table, the number of detections of drink driving. Does a driver screening test involve a test to detect both alcohol and drug use? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I believe it does. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: Looking at the numbers, does that mean we have seen a reduction in the screening tests from 2014-15 to 2015-16? We have seen an increase— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Just give us a moment because I am trying to understand exactly what you are asking. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: I am looking at the drug screening tests that have been done and then obviously linking it to the previous matter we have just been talking about, in regard to offences and people who are offending, and trying to get some science around— Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: The variation from 2014-15 to 2015-16 can be attributed to a different approach, whereby our resources are allocated on an intelligence basis. We undertake targeted alcohol testing, as opposed to what would be recognised as volume testing that does not necessarily rely on intelligence in terms of where and when we deploy. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: So you are saying that previously it would be a blanket Hackney Road type approach? Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Hackney Road, Sunday morning, 10 o'clock, yes, as opposed to targeting venues or locations where we know that the incidence of drink driving may be higher. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, I refer to pages 133 and 134. Has SAPOL raised any concerns to either the Department for Correctional Services or the minister about the number of prisoners held in police cells; if so, what was the nature of those concerns? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I just want to confirm what my recollection was, and that is that I have not received any formal advice from SAPOL, neither to my nor the police commissioner's recollection, regarding that question. That said, as you would be well aware, DCS does use police cells as surge beds for prisoners. I might invite the police commissioner to make a few remarks about the collaborative working relationship that exists between SAPOL and DCS in this area. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: Corrections does use police custody facilities, and I work closely with the chief executive of the Department for Correctional Services in relation to ensuring that our capacity to assist with his peak demands does not impact on operational policing responsibilities, and to date we have been able to do that successfully. There is capacity within police custody facilities to accommodate short-term corrections prisoners, and the chief executive of Corrections clearly understands that my obligations to operational policing come first and my capacity to assist and support him is a secondary priority, but one I am able to accommodate at this point. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I am mindful of the protocol of asking the minister the question, not the commissioner, but has the commissioner never ever raised with you, minister, concerns within SAPOL about the extra burden of work to SAPOL associated with managing a higher number than ever of DCS custodians? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have been briefed and advised that that work takes place, that SAPOL does assist DCS in the way that you described, but again, neither to the recollection of the police commissioner nor I has he advised me of any specific concerns that he has regarding that. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Are additional police resources required to manage this workload? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: No, it does not impact on police resources directly. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Does or does not? Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: Does not. Department for Correctional Services personnel come in and manage Corrections prisoners. It is not a responsibility for SAPOL to manage those people. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: In police cells—so Holden Hill, Port Adelaide or somewhere like that—DCS staff come in and they manage those detainees in your cells? Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: That is correct. Some time ago we handed over Holden Hill custody facility to Corrections, and we actually do not use that particular facility for police prisoners at this point in time. When Corrections prisoners are required to be accommodated within police facilities, an appropriate number of Corrections staff come in to manage those prisoners. They are not managed by police. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Does that put extra pressure on the other police cells then? Police have, presumably, about the right number of cells for their own purposes. If some of them are set aside for Corrections purposes, does that put additional pressure on the remaining police cells? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I think the person best placed to answer that again is the police commissioner. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: We limit the number of cells we make available to Corrections, based on our estimations of workload demand for police. Where we are able to forecast significant events or occasions when we anticipate that our demand will be higher, we accordingly limit the number of cells that are available to Corrections prisoners. At this point, it does not include Holden Hill because we have stepped away from the use of that as a custody facility for police prisoners. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, would you please outline the circumstances surrounding the four instances in the last year when someone has escaped from a police holding cell? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I can give a bit of detail there: on 15 November 2015 from the Whyalla Police Station, 8 April 2016 from the Port Lincoln Police Station, 6 July last year from the Port Augusta Court and then 14 July last year from the Mimili Police Station. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: This happened once in the previous year, the 2014-15 year, and it has happened four times in the 2015-16 year. Can you explain why there is an increase like that? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am happy to pass that question on to the police commissioner regarding an operational matter. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: The reality is that these circumstances occur as a result of the actions of police officers and the actions of individual prisoners. In some cases the escape from custody is relatively minor or short lived and, where we identify deficiencies in performance by police officers, they receive guidance in relation to that, whether it be through discipline, additional training or counselling. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Were any of those escapees considered dangerous to the public? Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: I do not have the specifics about the antecedence of the individuals concerned. I can say that, from the information I have, at least two of those were apprehended almost immediately. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, would you take that on notice? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Sure, bearing in mind that questions around confidentiality of prisoners will have to be taken into account, but I am happy to take it on notice and if it is appropriate to share that information I am sure it will be. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I think if they were dangerous to the public it would not be a matter of confidentiality, so that would be good. What actions have been taken to try to improve that performance since the quadrupling in the last 12 months? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Again, I might invite the police commissioner to answer. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: As I indicated, where we are able to attribute an escape to the performance or conduct of a police officer, we take action as appropriate through our disciplinary or training program to ensure that the individuals involved receive the support they require so that we do not have repeated incidents. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, is Mr Robert Rigney still at large? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Being an operational matter, I will invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS Cmmr STEVENS: I can say that Mr Rigney is currently still at large and there is significant police effort being directed towards locating and apprehending him. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I am very pleased to hear that, particularly in light of the minister's ministerial statement, where he said, and I quote, 'I can only hope that Mr Rigney turns himself in soon.' Minister, what has changed since offering that personal perspective a few days ago, saying that you hope he returns, and SAPOL now saying that a significant amount of effort is being put into actually finding him? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I think you would be aware that, since Mr Rigney has been at large, SAPOL has had an ongoing operation to address the issue. Of course, as the police commissioner just mentioned, SAPOL is putting in place a number of measures to try to maximise the likelihood of his capture. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Is Mr Rigney considered dangerous? The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Are these specific questions about Mr Rigney really related to the budget? You have asked about escapes and so forth; I am just not sure that specifically Mr Rigney's case per se is the one we need to be talking about. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Budget Paper 4, Volume 3, page 134, third line from the bottom talks about escapes. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Yes, but it does not say 'Mr Rigney', and you have certainly asked as many questions as you could possibly ask about escapes from police holding facilities. I would like to know whether any police were hurt in those escapes, but that is another thing. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Is he dangerous to the public? The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: Is this back on Mr Rigney again? I do not think we need to ask about Mr Rigney. You have asked a couple already; you have asked several in question time. I am just not certain that Mr Rigney needs that much attention. Mr DULUK House of Assembly Mr DULUK: Absolutely he does. He handed himself in and he is still at large. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: That is a different thing altogether. You can have some time on that this afternoon, no doubt. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I think it is quite reasonable for everybody in South Australia to know whether or not he is dangerous to the public, but I will accept your decision. Minister, has the recent change of practice, whereby SAPOL must deliver remandees or arrestees or prisoners, or whatever category they fall into at the time, to DCS facilities by noon each day (whereas it was previously 4pm each day), put additional pressure on police holding cells and police operations? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that there is no information to hand regarding any impacts as a consequence of what you refer to. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Does that mean that there are none or that there is no information at hand and you will take the question on notice? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Neither the police commissioner nor I have been advised of any major impacts. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: No police officers have raised this with you? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No police officers have raised it with me, to the best of my knowledge. I would say that I would not expect them to. The appropriate chain of communication between SAPOL and myself is through the police commissioner. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I refer to page 123, firearms. Minister, how many FTEs were in the Firearms Branch as at 30 June 2015 and 30 June 2016? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. The allocation of resources within SAPOL is a question best answered by the police commissioner. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: In terms of the breakdown over financial years I do not have that information available, but I can say that at this point, the establishment for Firearms Branch as at 30 June 2016 is 25 sworn and 22.03 nonsworn. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Thanks, commissioner. Minister, how many registered firearms owners are there in SA as of 30 June 2016? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Just for the sake of clarity, what was the question again? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How many registered firearms owners in South Australia as of 30 June 2016? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: This may not specifically answer your question but I think it will give you a pretty good indication. To 1 May 2016, I am advised there were 65,559 firearm licences and 300,510 total firearm registrations. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Was the last number 300,510? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Correct, as at 1 May 2016. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: What is the average amount of time that it takes to process a new firearms application at the moment? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am aware of the fact that the Firearms Branch have undertaken a significant effort to try to expedite the process that the firearms community goes through when then they make applications. I am aware of the fact and have been advised that there has been substantial improvement as a result of that effort, but I might handball to the police commissioner for more specific detail if there is somewhere. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Thank you, minister. I do not have specific detail on the time frames of processing, but I can say that we are working with an antiquated paper-based system, and that there are steps in place to replace that with an automated system. The volumes that we are dealing with are as follows: applications for a firearms licence are averaging about 5,000 a year; applications to vary a licence are 2,000 a year; renewal of firearms licences are 25,000 a year; applications for a permit to acquire is 14,000; and intervention order assessments are 12,000. The volumes that we are confronted with and the fact that we do not have an automated system does create challenges. We address those, at times when we identify failures in meeting time frames, by injecting additional resources for a short period of time to bring back those time frames within acceptable limits. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, is there any funding in the budget over the forward estimates for the upgrade of the firearms register IT system database? The commissioner just referred to challenges in that area and it is certainly something that has been discussed with regard to the Firearms Bill. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have been advised that there are ongoing efforts within SAPOL to assess whether or not there is any capacity for SAPOL to fund the investment from their current budget allocation. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Is that with regard to new firearms systems or the requirement for new IT systems throughout SAPOL? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Both, I am advised. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So, any upgrade to existing legacy systems to improve IT throughout SAPOL will have to come from SAPOL's existing— The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, what I have been advised is that SAPOL is actively looking to see whether or not those investments can be funded internally from the existing budget allocation. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When will that determination be made? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: It is an active piece of work, so there is not a specific time frame in place. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: But there comes a time where, if the work is not completed, the answer must be no. It cannot be that they are asked to look to see if they can take it out of their existing budget year after year after year. Eventually, the answer must be, actually, that it is not possible. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: That may well be the case, but it may well be the case that the opposite occurs. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So it is completely wide open? There is no intention from the government to try to support SAPOL with additional funding? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: No, the government is of course very supportive of the effort that is being undertaken to see if there are mechanisms for this to be funded. I think it is a piece of work that needs to be contemplated in due course. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, this has been going on for a decade at least that I know of. One of the impediments to SAPOL performing as well as they could is the fact that their legacy IT systems are not up to scratch. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Of course, it is important to remember that the parliament has gone through a very substantial process of introducing and passing a completely new Firearms Act, as you are well aware. Of course, there is an ongoing effort at the moment—to which I am grateful for the member for Stuart's contribution thus far—to update the regulations that accompany that act. Once that process is complete, I am advised that SAPOL's capacity to make a thorough assessment of the business case for a new system will be more readily able to be completed and, thus, provide a more accurate assessment of what the potential costs are in terms of (a) what is necessary and (b) what the cost implications of that would be. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: How many legacy IT systems are there within SAPOL that require updating or replacement? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Thanks, minister. I do not have an exact number of the legacy systems we have, but the Shield program, which I am sure you are aware of, is a comprehensive upgrade of SAPOL IT systems. That is an ongoing project that will capture virtually all of the legacy systems that we are dealing with and provide that IT functionality to the front line. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: When will that body of work be completed? Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: I do not have an exact date, but we have four or five years of continuing work to roll out different components of the Shield program, and we have already rolled out several. I think the overall cost of the program is about $42 million over the life of the project. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, would you update the committee on how the government is progressing with bulk purchase of police vehicles with other jurisdictions, assuming that is still the government's plan? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to respond to that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Thanks, minister. SAPOL led a project through the Australia New Zealand Policing Advisory Agency developing a specification for patrol, fleet and traffic patrol fleet, I think. That work has been completed and put to the industry for feedback. However, there is no likelihood that there will be a singular contract or arrangement that incorporates all jurisdictions within Australia in the acquisition of the next iteration of patrol vehicle. Different jurisdictions have different methodologies for how they stack their fleet. It will be the case that each jurisdiction will utilise those specifications to pursue their own arrangements to ensure they have an appropriate fleet. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Minister, as well as dealing with other jurisdictions, are you working with other government departments to try to streamline procurement of vehicles where SAPOL and other South Australian government departments might have the same requirement for a vehicle? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Could you repeat the question? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: The first question was about working with other police jurisdictions with regard to procurement. The second question was about working with other South Australian government departments with regard to procurement, where SAPOL and other government departments have need of the same type of vehicle. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I think with these particular questions I might get the police commissioner to respond. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: The responsibility for identifying the appropriate vehicle for general fleet use for passenger vehicles rests with state fleet. The specifications that we are referring to relate specifically to general duties, patrol vehicles and traffic fleets, which have some particular requirements that need to be factored in to how a supplier would provide a fleet which is appropriate for patrol use. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I refer to page 124, minor capital works, vehicles and equipment. I want to ask you about the long range acoustic devices which, you have explained to me, were funded by the federal government. What was the market value of those devices when they were received? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I have to take that on notice. I note your ongoing and continued interest in the long range acoustic devices. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: And police efficiency in general, minister. Has one ever been used in South Australia? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: As that is an operational question, I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: Yes, they have been used. We have used them for searches of people who are missing in outback or scrub land areas, because it gives us the capacity to emit an audible noise that a person can identify and follow, and also for the communication of instructions over large areas in a similar searching environment. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Have they ever been used for any sort of crowd control? Cmmr STEVENS House of Assembly Cmmr STEVENS: They have not been used in crowd control arrangements or riot or public order related activities. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: Since you asked a question about the use of these devices in a public context, I have received briefings from SAPOL regarding this subject. I took some assurance from the fact that those people who would be using such devices are highly trained and understand how to use them when it is appropriate to do so, which satisfied me, as the minister, that it is entirely appropriate for SAPOL to have these devices to be deployed in a way that is appropriate. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: On page 126, how many body-worn video cameras have been purchased? Are they operational yet; if not, when will they be operational? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that the acquisition of body-worn videos or a solution to body-worn videos is in its final stages. I am also advised that things are on track for their deployment commencing late this year. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: That must mean that the policies and procedures for how they would be used and how the recordings would be stored and all of that sort of thing have been resolved? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I am advised that it is on ongoing piece of work but that the bulk of that work has been undertaken by SAPOL. They have achieved the target of having most policies and procedures in place and ready to be implemented, but the police commissioner has advised that, as the commencement of the deployment takes place, naturally there will be a trial and review process put in place by the police commissioner. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: With regard to personal data entry devices, how many of those have been purchased? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: SAPOL commenced a trial of personal issue tablet devices at the Elizabeth LSA. The aim of the trial was to determine the viability and operational benefits resulting from officers being able to perform administration and operational tasks in the field, thereby reducing the need to return to base to utilise a desktop computer. I have been informed that, following that trial, a decision has been taken by SAPOL to go with a ruggedised tablet, which will be based in the vehicle but mobile in nature to achieve SAPOL's objectives, and that they have identified and procured 350 data entry terminals. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: Is SAPOL moving towards vehicle-based data entry terminals as well? The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I might invite the police commissioner to answer that. Cmmr STEVENS: We trialled the personal issue data entry terminals at the Elizabeth Local Service Area, where officers in that local service area were issued a device for their own use. The outcomes of that trial have shown us that there are greater opportunities for a more functional and useful resource by having ruggedised tablets which are also mounted in the vehicle and removable from the vehicle by officers, therefore replacing our mobile data terminals, which are currently situated in the vehicle. The trial of the DETs has resulted in an alternative strategy, which is ruggedised tablets which can be put in the vehicle and used as their principal data terminal or removed for portable use as well. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: So, hand held or in vehicle, it will work both ways? Cmmr STEVENS: Yes, that is right. Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I refer to page 124. What is the total number of CCTV cameras monitored by SAPOL as at 30 June 2015 and 30 June 2016 and what are the projections moving forward? You can take that on notice, if you would like to. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I think that might be a question that is best taken on notice. I am happy to get that number. Before things conclude, I have a clarifying statement I would like to make, to go back to an earlier question asked by the member for Stuart. I am just racking my brain as we have been sitting here going through things. You asked a question earlier about DCS's relationship with SAPOL regarding custody management and a specific question around transfers, the time line of transfers during the course of the day, and an operational decision taken earlier. Do you recall that question? Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN House of Assembly Mr VAN HOLST PELLEKAAN: I do. The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS House of Assembly The Hon. P. MALINAUSKAS: I just want to be clear. I do not have the rush of Hansard available, but you asked a question along the lines of whether any representations had been made by me, and I responded by saying that representations from police officers are made through the police commissioner. I just want to be clear. I have been getting around, as I foreshadowed earlier in my opening statements, and making every effort, with the police commissioner's guidance and, of course, authority, to visit police stations and talk to people working on the front line to familiarise myself with the organisation and how it operates. To the best of my recollection, no officer has said that to me on the ground, but I can recall a time when I visited the City Watchhouse and had the opportunity to meet a number of SAPOL officers and talk about their day-to-day operations. Again, just to be clear, in response to your question, in my remarks about not receiving any advice that that change had been of consequence I was making a remark that I had not received any formal representations from police through the police commissioner to the best of my recollection. The Chair House of Assembly The CHAIR: The time for questions having elapsed, I declare the examination of proposed payments completed. Sitting suspended from 15:32 to 15:45.